From jhminshall at comcast.net  Wed Dec  3 12:05:27 2003
From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:05:27 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: [saymaListserv] Politics and Economics
Message-ID: <p05210601bbf3b5b0a70f@[192.168.1.101]>



>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:31:32 -0500
>From: Janet Minshall <jhminshall at comcast.net>
>Subject: Re: [saymaListserv] Politics and Economics
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>Dear SAYMA Friend,  Thanks for the response.  I will check with the 
>Population Institute in Washington as you suggested, but I have seen 
>items in the foreign press that Europe's family planning agencies 
>responded to the Bush cuts by increasing funding for both abortion 
>and contraceptive programs in less developed countries (LDCs).
>
>I realize that slowing the rate of growth is a far cry from decline. 
>A Friend in SAYMA wanted to know what "population momentum" is as 
>Stan Becker used that term in a message.  I told her that it is like 
>putting on the brakes in a car -- the rate of forward motion slows 
>until it comes to a complete halt.  You have to come to a complete 
>stop before changing into reverse.  The info European demographers 
>are using indicates the worldwide decline will actually start in 50 
>to 100 years. In the meantime Europe, with an already declining 
>population, will be trying to work out an effective economic 
>response.  I hope they can. I also hope that the US government will 
>understand the problem well enough to realize that increasing the 
>size of the military and the security agencies is not adequate (and, 
>of course, is not the way of Friends). There has to be a big change 
>in economic policies and political direction in this country to 
>prevent catastrophe.
>				Janet Minshall



>In a message dated 11/30/2003 3:21:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>jhminshall at comcast.net writes:
>
>
>>(I believe the Bush Administration has cut the provision of 
>>abortion services funded by the US but not the rate of 
>>contraceptive distribution by US and European-funded providers 
>>around the world.  Maybe you or Stan can check that out.  And I 
>>agree completely with your last sentence "Voluntary birth control 
>>is an essential component of improved women's health and 
>>establishing a democratic society for women as well as men").
>>
>
>I wish that were so, but Bush's crowd appears to believe "just say 
>no" is appropriate for married women in developing countries.  
>
>Re the rest of your message, "Slowing the rate of growth" is a long 
>way from actual decline, as Stan pointed out.  If there are actual 
>declines, it will almost certainly be due to the usual suspects. 
> And Europe during the Black Plague, as well as the US Native 
>American population decline, should certainly convince us that is 
>possible.  
>
>Surprisingly, the remedy is probably better population control, 
>rather than relaxing.  I'd contact the Population Institute in 
>Washington if you want more information on that point.
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>Janet's new e mail address is :  jhminshall at comcast.net


-- 
Janet's new e mail address is :  jhminshall at comcast.net
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From jewen at micronetsystems.net  Wed Dec  3 13:36:13 2003
From: jewen at micronetsystems.net (Julia Ewen)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:36:13 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] Politics and Economics
References: <p05210601bbf3b5b0a70f@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <001a01c3b9c3$f3571e40$785dd441@amd1gig>

Fwd: Re: [saymaListserv] Politics and EconomicsJanet Minshall wrote: I realize that slowing the rate of growth is a far cry from decline. A Friend in SAYMA wanted to know what "population momentum" is as Stan Becker used that term in a message.  I told her that it is like putting on the brakes in a car -- the rate of forward motion slows until it comes to a complete halt.  You have to come to a complete stop before changing into reverse.  The info European demographers are using indicates the worldwide decline will actually start in 50 to 100 years. In the meantime Europe, with an already declining population, will be trying to work out an effective economic response.  I hope they can. I also hope that the US government will understand the problem well enough to realize that increasing the size of the military and the security agencies is not adequate (and, of course, is not the way of Friends). There has to be a big change in economic policies and political direction in this country to prevent catastrophe.

Janet, could you tell us more about the economic policies and political direction changes that we should be working toward as a response to the immanent decline in European and United States populations?

Janet also wrote:....Bush's crowd appears to believe "just say no" is appropriate for married women in developing countries.  

This Bush comment makes the assumption first that women in less developed countries have the option to say no. 
Until very recently women in this country did not have a legal right to say no. It was impossible to bring rape charges against a husband. Saying no to pregnancy is even more problematic than saying no to sex, because to women in less developed countries, large families are viewed as a good thing, not a burden. It validates their position in the family and community to bear several children, and in these countries, there is no social security, there are no pension plans, and for both parents the children are the means of old age support. It is a realistic proposition for five to ten children to support two elderly parents, themselves and growing families of their own. It is not realistic to suppose that one or two children will be able to support two elderly parents, themselves and children of their own. Therefore, in LDCs the object has not been population restraint or reduction but child spacing so that  a higher percentage of pregnancies and births have healthy outcomes for mother and child. This has been achieved over the last 30 years in West Africa, and the number of births per woman has declined as child survival rates and maternal survival rates have improved. Where women have become more educated and have acquired more economic resources not dependent on children or spouses, the birth rates have declined more than among women who continue to have to depend upon men and children for their economic survival. This has been the pattern in our own country. Rising education and employment rates lead to women demanding and securing the means to take control of their own fertility. 

But women and their choices are not the only factor in successful birth control. In patriarchal cultures the cooperation or at least acquiescence of men is an important influence on the willingness of women to use contraception. On the Indian subcontinent various strategies have succeeded in involving men in allowing women to use contraception and even to undertake regular use of male prophylactics and sterilization. Where women are afraid of retribution from male family members or even from other patriarchal women, use of contraception is less than optimum.  Secretly contracepting and then being discovered by husband or female inlaws is in many cases hazzardous to life and limb of the woman. 

So those of us who sit here in our nice houses with our 1.2 children and state of the art contraception are being no more realistic than GWB by telling our sisters in the LDC's "just use contraception", "just trust your old age to luck",
"just hope he won't ever find out you've been trying not to have babies"...Despite the incidents of family planning clinics being attacked in the USA, for most of us American women the decision to use contraception and limit our families is not a personally hazardous one. For many LDC women it is decision fraught with physical threat and emotional distress from family members with differing views. ZPG and planetary balance is a pretty abstract concept, and LDC folks are very practical people. They want to be shown that limiting family size is good for them as individuals. That is why child-spacing has succeeded in West Africa. West Africans have seen that it benefits the individual woman and her family in terms of better health and more economic productivity.  We should honor that.

And while we are at it, it might not be a bad idea to apply the same respect to the needs of individual American  and European women and their families. Have we asked: How will a decline in family size or childlessness benefit an individual woman? How will a declining population make life better for an increasing population of elderly people, many of them women who heeded the pleas not to reproduce? As costs of health care and assisted living rise, and our government continues its pattern of withdrawing taxpayer subsidy from health care and retirement income options, 
the real human cost will begin to be extracted from women who reach old age without children to care for them and who have either separated from or outlived their spouses. The disconnect from caring community though began a long time back, when the decision was made not to bring into the world those who would have a close physical and personal connection to them. It was instigated by a society that values material posessions more than social and emotional nurturing. Rather than putting a little more water and another potato into the soup, we decline to have another baby, not because we care about the planet but because we need another TV set...And it is not a long leap from there to a society that would rather refuse to create more living loving human beings than to do what it takes to manage our resources effectively or even increase them. Most resources neede to feed and clothe and house human beings are renewable. And technology that is capable of putting a man on the moon is also capable of multiplying these resources. What we lack is the desire, the commitment, the love...

Julia Parker Ewen
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From jhminshall at comcast.net  Thu Dec  4 14:06:50 2003
From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:06:50 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] Politics and Economics
In-Reply-To: <001a01c3b9c3$f3571e40$785dd441@amd1gig>
References: <p05210601bbf3b5b0a70f@[192.168.1.101]>
	<001a01c3b9c3$f3571e40$785dd441@amd1gig>
Message-ID: <p05210600bbf5133cf66f@[192.168.1.101]>

Hi Julia,  That quote came from a man in SAYMA who wishes to remain 
anonymous.  I was responding to that and to the rest of his message. 
I noticed when I went back to respond to your message that the 
computer program had attributed his quote to me in one of those 
mysterious automatic processes that happen. One part of my message to 
the Kitenet list is quoted below and then his complete message is 
given:

 From Janet Minshall:

>(I believe the Bush Administration has cut the provision of abortion 
>services funded by the US but not the rate of contraceptive 
>distribution by US and European-funded providers around the world. 
> Maybe you or Stan can check that out.  And I agree completely with 
>your last sentence "Voluntary birth control is an essential 
>component of improved women's health and establishing a democratic 
>society for women as well as men").
>
 From a SAYMA Friend:

I wish that were so, but Bush's crowd appears to believe "just say 
no" is appropriate for married women in developing countries.  

>Re the rest of your message, "Slowing the rate of growth" is a long 
>way from actual decline, as Stan pointed out.  If there are actual 
>declines, it will almost certainly be due to the usual suspects. 
> And Europe during the Black Plague, as well as the US Native 
>American population decline, should certainly convince us that is 
>possible. Surprisingly, the remedy is probably better population 
>control, rather than relaxing.  I'd contact the Population Institute 
>in Washington if you want more information on that point.



 From Julia:
>Janet, could you tell us more about the economic policies and 
>political direction changes that we should be working toward as a 
>response to the immanent decline in European and United States 
>populations?
>

  More from Janet Minshall in response to your question, Julia:

The biggest changes necessary are ones which will resolve the 
struggle over how our elderly and disabled will be provided with the 
Social Security and Medicare services they and their parents paid in 
FICA taxes during their active working years.  Each successive 
congress in the past thirty years or so has taken the so called 
"surpluses" paid by workers and employers into the Soc.Security and 
Medicare funds and used the money for other things.  The result is 
that now there is not enough money to maintain those essential 
programs.  The funds that should be there for such services are 
nearly gone.  You will notice that the present administration is 
trying to limit the cost of Medicare in the guise of strengthening 
it. The same response can be expected from the Federal Government to 
the Medicaid Programs.  Up to now The Feds have funded the states to 
provide essential healthcare services to the poor. The threat is that 
funding from the Federal Government to the states will end and the 
states will no longer have the resources to fund Medicaid on their 
own.  Healthcare and nutrition programs for poor women and children, 
and early childhood education programs are likely to be ended for the 
same reason.

With a decrease in population, and a parallel decrease in tax 
revenues, the Feds and the States would no longer be able to maintain 
many of the services that we in the US, and those in Gr. Britain and 
Europe have had for the last fifty years or more. The Republican 
response seems to be to gradually defund these programs in advance so 
that when population begins to drop the poor, the elderly, the 
disabled and the children of working people will not expect such 
assistance. That will be the source of high mortality rates among 
those vulnerable groups.  Funds that could have been used to 
reinforce those necessary programs will be/have been spent on weapons 
and support of an increased military, an increase in spending on our 
security agencies, and in tax cuts for the wealthy.

Bush has started the process and unless we can get him out of the 
White House, it will continue.
				Janet Minshall








-- 
Janet's new e mail address is :  jhminshall at comcast.net
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From moriah at preferred.com  Fri Dec  5 01:24:26 2003
From: moriah at preferred.com (Mary Calhoun)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:24:26 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] NYYM Looking for General Secretary
Message-ID: <02e501c3baf3$07dc4040$b872fea9@Mary>

Forwarded from a message from Helen Garay Toppins, New York YM.

^o^
\_/
Mary
AdminAsst at sayma.org
276-628-5852
POB 2191, Abingdon VA 24212-2191

-------------------------------------

General Secretary, New York Yearly Meeting

       

NYYM seeks an active, spiritually centered Friend to serve as General Secretary with overall care for a diverse yearly meeting. Qualifications include strong interpersonal and conflict-resolution skills, demonstrated written and oral skills, experience in personnel management, and familiarity with the uses of computer technology to enhance effectiveness and communications. 



This is a full-time position with a flexible work schedule including much travel and frequent weekend work. Applicants can obtain additional information from Helen Garay Toppins, NYYM Administrative Secretary, 15 Rutherford Place, New York, NY 10003, office at nyym.org, 212-673-5750. 



NYYM is an Equal Opportunity Employer. Application deadline is January 31, 2004. If possible, please respond by e-mail with a résumé and a letter explaining why you are interested in the job. 



Qualifications for a General Secretary

  1.. Must be a member of the Religious Society of Friends and be or become a member of a meeting within NYYM. 
  2.. Have understanding of and experience with the dynamics of Friends' Meetings. 
  3.. Have the ability and willingness to work with Friends who have diverse interpretations of Quaker faith and practice and at the same time maintain one's own integrity and spiritual grounding. 
  4.. Have the ability to organize and maintain a flexible work schedule which includes frequent weekend availability. 
  5.. Possess personnel management skills. Be knowledgeable about the use of computer technology to enhance effectiveness and communications. 
  6.. Possess strong interpersonal and conflict resolution skills. 
  7.. Possess strong written and oral communications skills. 
Responsibilities of the General Secretary

  1.. Visit monthly, quarterly, and regional meetings, seeking to connect our distant meetings with one another through sharing concerns and ministry. 
  2.. Support and nurture emerging worship groups. 
  3.. Work closely with the Clerk of the Yearly Meeting and serve ex-officio as a member of the Liaison Committee for the purpose of nurturing the life of the Yearly Meeting community. 
  4.. In conjunction with the Yearly Meeting Clerk, maintain a liaison with wider Friends' groups. When necessary and appropriate, interpret the Religious Society of Friends to the wider community in statements and actions, including speaking to the press, which articulate our historic peace testimony and are in keeping with Faith and Practice, other Friends' testimonies, and relevant Yearly Meeting minutes. Whenever possible, reference should be made to these sources. 
Supervise and evaluate the work of the Administrative Secretary. The General Secretary will be ultimately responsible for the overall good functioning of the Yearly Meeting office. 
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From jewen at micronetsystems.net  Mon Dec  8 14:22:22 2003
From: jewen at micronetsystems.net (Julia Ewen)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:22:22 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] Fw: Criminalizing Motherhood
Message-ID: <005601c3bdb8$3a98f240$725dd441@amd1gig>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jewen at micronetsystems.net>
To: <jewen at micronetsystems.net>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 1:15 PM
Subject: Criminalizing Motherhood


>
>
> This story has been forwarded to you from http://www.alternet.org by
jewen at micronetsystems.net.
>
> Where does a situation cease to be a medical case and become a legal case?
And what does this case imply for women who purposely end pregnancies as
opposed to those whose pregnancies have disastrous outcomes secondary to
other hazardous health conditions, such as drug use. Use of illegal drugs is
not illegal per se. Possession is illegal, sale of them is illegal, being in
public uner their influence is illegal, but having them in your system
isn&#39;t illegal--because your body is your own.
>
> If the fetus is a separate person protected by law, does that mean that if
the fetus causes harm to the mother or death to the mother and medical
science succeeds in saving the baby, that the baby is criminally accountable
for involuntary manslaughter or wrongful Icivil) death action by the
mother&#39;s estate on behalf of the deceased maternal &#34;victim&#34;?
The woman perhaps had no more intention to harm the fetus and no more
ability to control her addiction than the fetus has of causing the
mother&#39;s death or ability to cease doing that which is damaging the
mother.  If every life is equally precious, then we a
&#34;Solomon&#39;ss&#34; legal problem. As usual the Law can only subject us
to death, having convicted us of wrong. Mercy and love applied with wisdom
according to discernment under God&#39;s leading is a more excellent way. We
must let go of seeking first to determine who ought to be punished and seek
first the good of all concerned....Julia Parker Ewen
>
> -------------------------------------
> Criminalizing Motherhood
> http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17320
>
> A woman who gave birth to a stillborn child is convicted of murder,
setting a dangerous precedent.
> -------------------------------------
>
>
>




From jewen at micronetsystems.net  Tue Dec  9 10:45:33 2003
From: jewen at micronetsystems.net (Julia Ewen)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:45:33 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] Polygamy--Quaker response
Message-ID: <002f01c3be63$1b03f5f0$745dd441@amd1gig>

EMAIL THIS EmailI'm enclosing a link from CNN that really set me to ruminating about our Quaker response to diversity as affects marriages. Many of our liberal Meetings solemnize gay marriages. And I am in favor of committed monogamous unions for gays and lesbians. And the civil rights that go with that status. 

However, the barn door may be open now to some other issues we did not anticipate.  Friends tend to be uncritically supportive of some "oppressed peoples" in the name of social justice, and some of said peoples do not honor equality of women. In particular polygamous societies treat women as chattels.

This is not just a foreign culture issue either. The issue of polygamy keeps coming up in our own culture.


There's a guy , a fundamentalist Mormon, who is suing to brainwash his 10 year old daughter into polygamy. He's a resident of Pennsylvania, remarried, and looking for yet more wives, and thinks it's not illegal because he wouldn't register the subsequent marriages with the state. What about it, Friends, does his free speech extend to advocating what most of us think is child abuse? 

The mother did what she clearly should have done, appealed to the Mormon elders, then divorced the guy and limited or barred him from visitation since he advocated such views and wanted to teach them to the child. However, she set up a situation in which there's an opportunity for a silly judge to create a bad precedent, either backing this man's right to talk a child into accepting a polygamous marriage while she is still under age, or declaring that multiple marriages are not illegal as long one registers only one. Thus legitimizing concubinage. 

If we had someone attending a Friends Meeting who came from a polygamous culture and wanted to continue to practice polygamy as a Friend, I wonder what our liberal Quakers would do with that? Paul says that converts ought not to divorce spouses merely because they convert, so perhaps we would have to tolerate an existing multiple marriage. But what if the person comes to us single and then wants to undertake more than one marriage, and wants to do so under care of the Meeting? and how is this scenario different from the problems involved in the case cited in this news link?

And if we think that polygamy is immoral here, why should we send our tax money overseas to support the re-establishment of governments in Iraq and Afghanistan that not only tolerate but enshrine polygamy and the attendant chattel status of women? 

Does the desire for political correctness trump everything today, including the testimony of equality, under which Friends have stood up for the rights of women?

We see efforts to re-chattelize women going on right here in our own country, and in the name of freedom of speech and religious liberty and tolerance and diversity, we keep silent and sit on our hands. What should an effective Friends response be? Has anyone had this issue actually come up in a Friends meeting?

Julia Parker Ewen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: jewen at micronetsystems.net 
To: jewen at micronetsystems.net 
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:53 AM
Subject: CNN.com - Dad sues to teach daughter about polygamy - Dec. 8, 2003


   
                
                        Powered by   
                 
           
             * Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. 
           
                
              You have received the following link from jewen at micronetsystems.net:    
           
                
           
                
              Click the following to access the sent link: 
                
               CNN.com - Dad sues to teach daughter about polygamy - Dec. 8, 2003* CNN.com will expire this article on 01/07/2004.  
                        
                      
                    
                      
                  Get your EMAIL THIS Browser Button and use it to email information from any Web site.  
                      
                  
                      
           
              *This article can also be accessed if you copy and paste the entire address below into your web browser.
            http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/12/08/polygamy.appeal.ap/index.html 

           
     
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From nunispablo at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 11:28:39 2003
From: nunispablo at yahoo.com (Paul Nunis)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 07:28:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [saymaListserv] Polygamy--Quaker response
In-Reply-To: <002f01c3be63$1b03f5f0$745dd441@amd1gig>
Message-ID: <20031209152839.82668.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com>

Unintended consequences are a part of the human condition. 
It does seem likely that any court rulings that remove legislative restrictions on the definition of marriage will allow everyone to create their own definitions, to include polygamous unions.
How Friends choose to reconcile their own definitions of marriage with the desires of others will be an ongoing process, I am sure.
 
Paul Nunis

Julia Ewen <jewen at micronetsystems.net> wrote:
However, the barn door may be open now to some other issues we did not anticipate...  


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
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From bright_crow at mindspring.com  Tue Dec  9 12:49:19 2003
From: bright_crow at mindspring.com (Mike Shell)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:49:19 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [saymaListserv] "Baghdad Burning" Weblog
Message-ID: <1375.1070988559848.JavaMail.root@wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net>

Friends,

I may have called attention to this website before, but I want to urge you to visit it and let others know about it.  It is a Weblog ("blog") updated almost daily by a young woman in Iraq.  It is powerful, articulate and full of information from people on the ground in that nation.

Baghdad Burning
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

In addition to her own accounts, there are links on the right sidebar to a number of valuable related sites, including

Al-Jazeera in English
http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

Iraq Occupation Watch
http://www.occupationwatch.org/

Iraq Body Count
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

IACenter
http://www.iacenter.org/

Back to Iraq
http://www.back-to-iraq.com/

and others.

Please share these resources widely.

Blessed Be,
Michael.






From tlamm at chpl.net  Wed Dec 10 15:38:21 2003
From: tlamm at chpl.net (Tim Lamm)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:38:21 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] ebay spoof 
Message-ID: <003701c3bf58$e1128360$15a8a8c0@BRADBURY1>

Friends in SAYMA,

I recently received an e-mail message claiming to be from ebay.com with the
subject "eBay Member Billing Information Uptaded" [sic].  The email message
came to me at webmaster at sayma.org.  Others of you with SAYMA e-mail
addresses may receive the similar messages.  Do not reply to it; it is a
spoof---an attempt to obtain personal information illegitimately.  Just
delete it, or forward the message to spoof at ebay.com then deleted it.  You
can read more about spoof e-mails at the ebay web site, under "Security
Center."

Having an e-mail address posted on the SAYMA web site does subject you to
more junk mail and spoofs such as this than you would ordinary receive.  The
web committee is working on a remedy, which should be available in a few
days.

---Tim Lamm, Web Manager
Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association
www.sayma.org



From CIsland at aol.com  Thu Dec 11 12:12:45 2003
From: CIsland at aol.com (CIsland at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:12:45 EST
Subject: [saymaListserv] Cut UN-recycled paper
Message-ID: <1e8.152c2996.2d09f17d@aol.com>

Friends of SAYMA and Chattanooga Meeting, 
 
Your YM Ecological Concerns Network committee, in the Representative Meeting 
at Atlanta last Seventh Day, proposed that the Yearly Meeting adopt the 
practice of using only 100% postconsumer recycled chlorine-free processed paper.  
One of the questions that arose in the ensuing discussion suggested that there 
might be little, if any, net environmental benefit in the use of recycled paper 
as compared to using paper made directly from harvested trees.  The reason 
for this suggestion was based on the view, expressed by the questioner himself, 
that the trees for making paper come from tree farms where trees are grown 
exclusively for making paper and that, after harvests on these farms, replacement 
trees are planted right away.  So, where is the problem with using 
UN-recycled paper?  He drew a parallel between recycling paper and trying to recycle 
corn because, in his expressed view, paper comes from farms where all the land 
does is grow trees just like all the land does in corn fields is grow corn.  
This suggestion gave me pause but I responded rather tentatively that I thought 
the harvesting of trees for paper was not that simple.  I said maybe the full 
story is that old-growth mixed wood forests are clear cut to start the paper 
companies' tree farms.  
 
Surprisingly, back home after Atlanta, the mail waiting for me held the 
current issue of ONEARTH magazine with its cover bannering "3 Million Trees Gone in 
One Year, Tennessee's Chainsaw Massacre."  (Cover Story of the current issue, 
Winter,2004, volume 25, #4) The article is a report of an investigative 
journalism project made possible by grants from the Josephine Albright Patterson 
Fund for Investigative Journalism and the John Neu Family Foundation.  It is 
full of solidly documented factual descriptions of what has been, and continues 
to be, done to the forests of the Cumberland Plateau in eastern Tennessee.  
 
My suspicions were right.  This report tells the tale of "about 200,000 
acres" of native wood forests being clearcut, i.e. raped of all their trees, on the 
Eastern Tennessee portion of the Cumberland Plateau alone.  All for the 
production of paper.  (It also tells the whole story about the paper companies, the 
loggers, the monetary enrichment to these 'players,' the destruction of 
habitat of hundreds of species of wild and plant life, the fowling of our water 
supply, the devastating consequences of monoculture in former mixed woodlands, 
the devastation from chemicals sprayed over the land, etc.)  The tale 
includes recent history about the increasing rate at which forests are being destroyed 
for tree farms and the prospect that the rate will increase even more in the 
future.  These facts engender an image of a future when the yet remaining 
healthy, full-of-life woodlands with the rich abundance of species variety are 
all stripped bare and empty of any life; destroyed by erosion, pine 
beetles, unnatural chemicals, etc., and not even able to sustain tree farms.

(This article is an excellent example of good investigative journalism 
because 'the players' in the paper industry do their best to conceal the facts of 
the destruction of our forests and woodlands.  The report also documents their 
efforts to conceal and deceive.)  
 
Bottom line: Cutting the use of UN-recycled paper products is VERY IMPORTANT
!  (And, what makes it even more important is the reduction in burning fossil 
fuels whose emissions are also destroying major other aspects of our home 
planet's environment as well as causing increased disease in humans.)
 
In hopes of increasing Peace/Shalom and Justice in the world, including our 
own homeland,  Bill Reynolds

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From timinathens at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 11 12:38:54 2003
From: timinathens at yahoo.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:38:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [saymaListserv] Cut UN-recycled paper
In-Reply-To: <1e8.152c2996.2d09f17d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20031211163854.35271.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Bill. Also, let's not forget the order of priority -- reduce, re-use, recycle (in that order): reducing use of paper (e.g. cloth bags, electronic newsletters, smaller fonts for letters, etc.), re-using (saving one-sided paper to use the back), then recycling.

CIsland at aol.com wrote:Friends of SAYMA and Chattanooga Meeting, 
 
Your YM Ecological Concerns Network committee, in the Representative Meeting at Atlanta last Seventh Day, proposed that the Yearly Meeting adopt the practice of using only 100% postconsumer recycled chlorine-free processed paper.  One of the questions that arose in the ensuing discussion suggested that there might be little, if any, net environmental benefit in the use of recycled paper as compared to using paper made directly from harvested trees.  The reason for this suggestion was based on the view, expressed by the questioner himself, that the trees for making paper come from tree farms where trees are grown exclusively for making paper and that, after harvests on these farms, replacement trees are planted right away.  So, where is the problem with using UN-recycled paper?  He drew a parallel between recycling paper and trying to recycle corn because, in his expressed view, paper comes from farms where all the land does is grow trees just like all the land does in corn fields is
 grow corn.  This suggestion gave me pause but I responded rather tentatively that I thought the harvesting of trees for paper was not that simple.  I said maybe the full story is that old-growth mixed wood forests are clear cut to start the paper companies' tree farms.  
 
Surprisingly, back home after Atlanta, the mail waiting for me held the current issue of ONEARTH magazine with its cover bannering "3 Million Trees Gone in One Year, Tennessee's Chainsaw Massacre."  (Cover Story of the current issue, Winter,2004, volume 25, #4) The article is a report of an investigative journalism project made possible by grants from the Josephine Albright Patterson Fund for Investigative Journalism and the John Neu Family Foundation.  It is full of solidly documented factual descriptions of what has been, and continues to be, done to the forests of the Cumberland Plateau in eastern Tennessee.  
 
My suspicions were right.  This report tells the tale of "about 200,000 acres" of native wood forests being clearcut, i.e. raped of all their trees, on the Eastern Tennessee portion of the Cumberland Plateau alone.  All for the production of paper.  (It also tells the whole story about the paper companies, the loggers, the monetary enrichment to these 'players,' the destruction of habitat of hundreds of species of wild and plant life, the fowling of our water supply, the devastating consequences of monoculture in former mixed woodlands, the devastation from chemicals sprayed over the land, etc.)  The tale includes recent history about the increasing rate at which forests are being destroyed for tree farms and the prospect that the rate will increase even more in the future.  These facts engender an image of a future when the yet remaining healthy, full-of-life woodlands with the rich abundance of species variety are all stripped bare and empty of any life; destroyed by erosion, pine
 beetles, unnatural chemicals, etc., and not even able to sustain tree farms.

(This article is an excellent example of good investigative journalism because 'the players' in the paper industry do their best to conceal the facts of the destruction of our forests and woodlands.  The report also documents their efforts to conceal and deceive.)  
 
Bottom line: Cutting the use of UN-recycled paper products is VERY IMPORTANT!  (And, what makes it even more important is the reduction in burning fossil fuels whose emissions are also destroying major other aspects of our home planet's environment as well as causing increased disease in humans.)
 
In hopes of increasing Peace/Shalom and Justice in the world, including our own homeland,  Bill Reynolds

_______________________________________________
Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association mailing list
sayma at kitenet.net
http://kitenet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sayma




Love & truth, agape & satyagraha, Tim

Tim Johnson, e-mail: timinathens at yahoo.com

"Love is a verb." -- Stephen Covey


---------------------------------
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From jhminshall at comcast.net  Thu Dec 11 13:02:44 2003
From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:02:44 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] ebay spoof
In-Reply-To: <003701c3bf58$e1128360$15a8a8c0@BRADBURY1>
References: <003701c3bf58$e1128360$15a8a8c0@BRADBURY1>
Message-ID: <p05210600bbfe50366c30@[192.168.1.101]>

Hi Tim,  Thanks for the info on e-bay spoofs.  I haven't received any 
spam or spoofs on the Kitenet list.  I have received a series of 
offensive sexually-related spam on our worship group list 
<anneewakeecreek at sayma.org>. I get as many as four a day. Does anyone 
know how that address could have been obtained? Is it on a public 
Quaker web site or listing?  I already raised this with Mary Calhoun 
and she suggested that we might need a filter on that address.  Best 
Regards, Janet





>Friends in SAYMA,
>
>I recently received an e-mail message claiming to be from ebay.com with the
>subject "eBay Member Billing Information Uptaded" [sic].  The email message
>came to me at webmaster at sayma.org.  Others of you with SAYMA e-mail
>addresses may receive the similar messages.  Do not reply to it; it is a
>spoof---an attempt to obtain personal information illegitimately.  Just
>delete it, or forward the message to spoof at ebay.com then deleted it.  You
>can read more about spoof e-mails at the ebay web site, under "Security
>Center."
>
>Having an e-mail address posted on the SAYMA web site does subject you to
>more junk mail and spoofs such as this than you would ordinary receive.  The
>web committee is working on a remedy, which should be available in a few
>days.
>
>---Tim Lamm, Web Manager
>Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association
>www.sayma.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association mailing list
>sayma at kitenet.net
>http://kitenet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sayma


-- 
Janet's new e mail address is :  jhminshall at comcast.net


From CIsland at aol.com  Sun Dec 14 19:21:22 2003
From: CIsland at aol.com (CIsland at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:21:22 EST
Subject: [saymaListserv] How to cut UN-recycled paper use
Message-ID: <1a9.1e120712.2d0e4a72@aol.com>

A day after posting 'Cut UN-recycled paper,' the sense of incompletion came 
to me.  The former post put forth only the big abstract idea  - nothing about 
how we can practically do it.  You may already be practicing all the ways to do 
it but it may be that some other readers have not seen nor heard about the 
practicalities yet.  So here are the 3 R's for cutting UN-recycled paper.  The 
most pointed item in this post is the last of the three, although one and two 
are also very important.    

R #1:  REDUCE the quantity of paper that you use in all of its forms.  Email 
helps us a lot in this.  Save copies of electronically transmitted documents 
on a disc instead of on paper.  Reduce the number of magazine subscriptions.  
Stop catalogs delivery to your house.  Use cloth napkins, not paper ones.  Use 
cloth rags and towels to clean up spills and scraps rather than paper towels.  
Handkerchiefs instead of paper tissues.  Read news on the internet instead of 
in "the paper."  

R#2:  RE-USE:  For copies that you need on paper, print  on the clean side of 
pages that were used on the other side. (Save those one-side-clean pages to 
create your supply.)  I like to think of using both-sides-clean 'new' paper 
(i.e., produced from recycled paper) as a form of re-using because we are reusing 
the fiber that was returned from use in one or more prior cycle(s).  Put 
little blank labels over the addresses on envelopes you receive, write your 
addresses on them and re-use the envelopes.  

The following re-use facts just in from Friend Joyce Rouse, aka Earth Mama.  
If everyone wrapped 3 gifts in re-used paper, we would save enough paper to 
cover 45,000 football fields. "Wow! If you are thinking the little things you do 
to save natural resources don?t really make a difference, I wanted to 
encourage you with that fact. Again, Wow! "Even at this time of year when it seems 
that there is no antidote for all of the over-doing (over-spending, 
over-consumption and over-eating.......) we really can be a change agent for a saner 
lifestyle.  "Gift bags are wonderful for re-using. We have a family joke of passing 
the SAME paper Christmas gift bag back and forth between two people for about 
7 years now! It has developed into a family tradition.


R# 3:  RECYCLE  including BUY RECYCLED!.  This brings me to the practical 
pointer about how to obtain paper products made from recycled wood fiber.  For 
regular style printer and copier paper (81/2"x11",  11"x17", etc.) that is acid 
free, produced from 100% postconsumer, chlorine free processed fiber, there is 
the "Envirograph100" line sold  by www.badgerpaper.com.  For paper products 
to use in home cleaning (paper towels, napkins, tissue), there is the Seventh 
Generation brand, available at places such as natural foods stores and online 
through www.gaiam.com.  (Note: I am not on the payroll of either of these 
companies and have no other financial interest in them either.)         

In hopes of increasing Peace/Shalom and Justice in the world, including our 
own homeland,  
Bill Reynolds
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From carrtk at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 14 19:40:29 2003
From: carrtk at earthlink.net (Thais Carr)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:40:29 -0600
Subject: [saymaListserv] more on how to cut UN-recycled paper use
Message-ID: <002801c3c29b$aafc80a0$b53445cf@CPQ32469111403>

I have used cloth gift bags for about 10 years now.  (My sewing skills are only home ec 101, so anyone with a sewing machine can do the same.)  I cut out interesting images from the front of Christmas cards for next year's gift tags by punching a hole in it & threading the ribbon through it before tying the bag. (I'm the first to admit this method is not a good one for households with small children who would be too tempted to peek!)  Today I read a couple great ideas.  The first is using leftover wallpaper for gift wrapping.  The other was to run used gift wrap through a paper shredder & use it instead of tissue paper.  (I personally have a box for saving tissue paper I receive. You can take a dry iron to wrinkled tissue paper & it will look great.)  I just hate taking my trash to the dump right after Christmas & seeing the dumpster bulging with  discarded gift wrap!    Thais Carr
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From jhminshall at comcast.net  Mon Dec 15 13:18:10 2003
From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:18:10 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] Re: Politics and War a topic for SAYMA?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031215101600.039adac8@mail.comcast.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031214162925.00af2200@mail.comcast.net>
	<5.2.1.1.2.20031215101600.039adac8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <p05210600bc038ddc7bc8@[192.168.1.101]>

Hi Free and Other SAYMA Friends,  I think it is completely untrue 
that we don't usually bring politics into Friends meetings.  For more 
than fifty years we have consistently brought politics into our 
meetings because, for example, civil rights abuses, the Viet Nam War, 
the enormous cultural challenges brought about and reinforced by the 
Women's Movement, and the oppression of Central American refugees 
caused us great spiritual pain and concern.  That spiritual pain was 
addressed clearly and frequently in our meetings and worship groups. 
"Amens" and spiritual support from our meetings was what kept us 
focused on the issues which troubled our spirits most and required 
Spirit-led responses. We harkened back to John Woolman and the acute 
inner pain he experienced over slavery and we searched for clearness. 
We read again accounts of sufferings and imprisonment for political 
acts from the early years of Quakerism.  In its inmost manifestation 
the political always was spiritual for Friends and required of us 
both prayers and actions.

Now it is time for Friends to focus on the unending military 
conflicts planned and outlined for us by the Bush Administration, on 
the erosion of Constitutional rights seen as necessary to our 
"Homeland Security", and on our government's apparent flagrant 
disregard of both laws and human rights in the taking and holding of 
prisoners of war. I believe we are once more called to search for 
effective Spirit-led responses and then to act.  Janet





Hi Kim and Susan and Sharon,

Friends don't usually bring politics into the Meeting, but does 
President George W. Bush's focus on WAR change that?    Can we get a 
discussion going at YM that raises this concern?    What do you think?

I have sent the following e mail to many of my friends, but am not 
sure about where to bring this inside our faith community?    Any 
ideas?

Blessings,

Free

>Hi,
>
>If we do not unite to remove Bush from office in 2004, we are in for 
>a much worse 4 years than we have already been through.   It makes 
>me shudder to think of such a scenario.
>
>The interview which is at the link below is an eye opening story 
>about how badly we need to stop Bush!   Even long time former 
>members of the CIA speak about the importance of truth in making 
>decisions and how we will all suffer unless some changes are made in 
>2004.
>
>The truth is that if Nader had not run, Bush would NOT be president 
>of the USA today!   Many people sit out each election because they 
>think that the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are pretty 
>much the same.    Well, now we are reminded that there IS a BIG 
>Difference between the Republicans and the Democrats!     The 
>Democrats are moving towards the left, partly because of Bush's 
>policies, but also because we need to be as united as possible.   I 
>have seen the writing on the wall.   It says
>
>         "PERPETUAL WARFARE IN THE NAME OF SECURITY"
>
>Let's argue for our views in a political party that has a chance of 
>defeating George W. Bush and THEN let us support the winner of that 
>contest.  Otherwise Bush will be a shoo-in for re-election, as he 
>tramples over the bodies of our soldiers and the Iraqi and 
>Afghanistan people and Lady Liberty on his way back to the oval 
>office.
>
>Blessings,
>
>Free
      http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/121503E.shtml


-- 
Janet's new e mail address is :  jhminshall at comcast.net


From nunispablo at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 15 13:37:46 2003
From: nunispablo at yahoo.com (Paul Nunis)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:37:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [saymaListserv] Re: Politics and War a topic for SAYMA?
In-Reply-To: <p05210600bc038ddc7bc8@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <20031215173746.48953.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Janet Minshall <jhminshall at comcast.net> wrote:
> ...I think it is  completely untrue 
> that we don't usually bring politics into Friends
> meetings....


Since man is the political animal, of course it is
impossible to avoid bringing political issues into our
meetings. 
The study of Scripture alone references the politics
of the day, and resonsates with political issues
today. Social issues such as those mentioned are the
product of political decisions and political
maneuvering, and Friends have always shared their
feelings on such matters. 

There is one politcal practice that I personally would
wish to see less of in our midst, and that is the
partisan vilification of those for whom one did not
vote, or the perjoration of those who voted
differently, wrapped in a pseudo-Friendly 'message'.

Attempting to tar an individual, or a group, as being
the mechanism for society's ills, would seem to miss
several points, not the least of them Biblical.

Thank you

Paul Nunis 




. 

=====
" There is no standing above the conflict on Olympian heights...The artist must elect to fight for Freedom
or for Slavery.  I have made my choice. "
Paul Robeson

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/


From losborne at cn.edu  Tue Dec 16 10:34:39 2003
From: losborne at cn.edu (Larry Osborne)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:34:39 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] RE: politics in Meeting
Message-ID: <A968D2BF82BCD74FAF78F0C99DDC11CA0115BAB9@mail.cn.edu>


>>Since man is the political animal, of course it is
impossible to avoid bringing political issues into our
meetings. The study of Scripture alone references the politics
of the day, and resonsates with political issues
today. Social issues such as those mentioned are the
product of political decisions and political
maneuvering, and Friends have always shared their
feelings on such matters. There is one politcal practice that I
personally would wish to see less of in our midst, and that is the
partisan vilification of those for whom one did not
vote, or the perjoration of those who voted
differently, wrapped in a pseudo-Friendly 'message'.

>>Attempting to tar an individual, or a group, as being
the mechanism for society's ills, would seem to miss
several points, not the least of them Biblical.

>>Thank you

>>Paul Nunis 

Friends--Thank you Paul for speaking my mind. Messages are inevitably
political and to pretend otherwise is to slip into egocentric thinking,
as in--"you're being political, I'm just speaking the truth."

A good source of insight on the politics of lived experience for me has
been the thought and writings of Paulo Friere, whose context was
education. All education is political, according to Paulo.  The Right
likes to say "we're for excellence, the Left wants to politicize
education."  But of course the Right's positions on education are
political in the sense that they are driven by certain values and not
others, certain presuppositions about reality and human behavior and
potential and not others, certain assumptions about the purposes of
education and not others, etc/etc. So let's admit the political
dimensions of the realities we address in Meeting and try to gain a
clearer consciousness our own political perspectives and "agendas."  (I
love that word, as in the "homosexual agenda"--an implied political
motive that people who oppose homosexual rights ascribe to those who do
not share their viewpoint.  Surely we all have agendas, only some of
which we are aware of.)  

Perhaps we can explore not WHETHER our messages and actions in Meeting
are political, but rather HOW do I share a concern with a message with
its political dimension in an appropriate way.  Maybe there are
questions of PROCESS here that need to be reflected on that resemble the
kind of academic freedom, tolerance, and sensitivity we hope governs
dialog in liberal arts environments.  In my psychology classes, for
example, I tell my students, "some of this is controversial stuff. Let's
be tough on ideas but gentle with each other. Everyone gets to speak
once before someone speaks again.  Let's learn and practice how to
listen. Rather than attacking or defending, let's learn to ask questions
and try to gain a deep understanding of the other."  

Paul's second point also speaks my mind, and may be a much more serious
challenge to our faithfulness as Quakers, at least certainly to mine.
Messages are going to be political, but we are not determined by some
kind of behaviorism that requires an oppositional, competitive,
enemy-image orientation towards the other.  Let's remember Gandhi and
King; all are brothers and sisters. Our goal is truth and
reconciliation, not the defeat of enemies. Our opponent of the moment
has a portion of the truth, even George W. Bush! The enemy is not Bush,
Rumsfeld and company. It is the darkness that blinds us all to some
degree; the violence of Bush but the violence of my own heart, too.

I admit this is a big thorn in my side. I frequently find myself
overwhelmed with ill will and hate for the policies, actions, words, and
personhood of those people who stole the 2000 election without any
regard for truth, fairness, or building a participatory and
consensus-based approach to governing the U.S. I need the inner light to
open another way and help empower me to follow. Messages that speak to
my condition are needed and helpful, not another anti-Bush diatribe.

Peace and warm regards to all,

Larry Osborne
West Knoxville Friends Meeting  







. 

=====
" There is no standing above the conflict on Olympian heights...The
artist must elect to fight for Freedom
or for Slavery.  I have made my choice. "
Paul Robeson

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association mailing list
sayma at kitenet.net
http://kitenet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sayma


End of sayma Digest, Vol 11, Issue 9
************************************


From listener at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 16 23:27:16 2003
From: listener at bellsouth.net (Kit Potter)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:27:16 -0600
Subject: [saymaListserv] FW: RFK, Jr.--a Kennedy protecting the commons
Message-ID: <001001c3c44d$ab8f7fa0$6501a8c0@heyoka>


I know that many of you would like to read these, if you have not seen them.
My cousin, a Friend from Florida, sent them to me.

Peace to all,
Kit  Potter


Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., has spent his life as an environmentalist.  Now he
has had enough, and it shows. This is the most comprehensive indictment of
the current administration I have seen,
http://www.rollingstone.com/features/nationalaffairs/featuregen.asp?pid=2154
and it is all about the reversals caused by the Bush administration, on
purpose, in the global efforts to clean up the air and water, preserve the
woods and wetlands, and to insure that our children's children will have a
planet to call home.  See also: http://www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/default.asp
"This, to me, is one of the most alarming things that this Administration is
doing -- it’s compromised the scientific process and systematically
intimidated, blackballed, fired, muzzled and gagged scientists in every
department of government." -- Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Environmentalists, rejoice, you have found a voice.  I am sharing this link
as widely as I can.

Peace,

Warren

OC-'69

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From jhminshall at comcast.net  Thu Dec 18 13:57:29 2003
From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:57:29 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] RE: Politics in Meeting
In-Reply-To: <A968D2BF82BCD74FAF78F0C99DDC11CA0115BAB9@mail.cn.edu>
References: <A968D2BF82BCD74FAF78F0C99DDC11CA0115BAB9@mail.cn.edu>
Message-ID: <p05210605bc077ee583b2@[192.168.1.101]>

Dear Larry Osborne and Paul Nunis,  I sincerely appreciate your 
responses.  It is wonderful to carry on a serious discussion on this 
list.  This is, I believe, the most Friendly and the most productive 
use of electronic communications.

First, the intent of Free Polazzo's message, which I inadvertently 
passed on to the Kitenet list without his permission, was to ask that 
time be set aside at yearly meeting to address his and others' 
spiritual concerns about how we might respond in a Spirit-led manner 
to the war.  Those concerns have been raised by President Bush's 
public statements that he sees this country in a state of war, of 
ongoing conflict, for the forseeable future. Other spiritual concerns 
arise from the Bush administration's apparent lack of concern for 
truth, for the law, and for human rights in pursuit of their economic 
and political goals.  Bush and some of his appointees have openly 
stated that opposition to their goals may constitute treasonable 
action.

We as Friends have a testimony concerning Truth, specifically of "one 
standard of truth", which is to be observed in both our public and 
our private lives.  You suggest that we should discuss spiritually 
troubling ideas and our concerns about them freely, but not name the 
adherents of those ideas or hold them responsible for the effects 
they create. This appears to me to be obfuscation, Obfuscation: to 
confuse and obscure an issue or concern by introducing extraneous 
information. I prefer to speak plainly, or try to, as another of our 
testimonies--Simplicity--enjoins us to do. By separating current US 
policy from those who have developed and enforced it, you create the 
"wiggle room" necessary for people to conclude that "Republicans and 
Democrats are both the same" (they most certainly are not) and that 
by voting for someone with no possibility of winning we assume and 
defend the higher moral ground.

Friere was right, all education IS political. And I agree completely 
that there is that of God (as well as that of the Devil) in all of 
us.  We are called as Friends to discern which is which and do 
something about it, not retreat into a  confusion of form with 
substance.
		 Janet Minshall, Anneewakee Creek Friends Worship Group



Paul Nunis wrote:
>  >>Since man is the political animal, of course it is
>impossible to avoid bringing political issues into our
>meetings. The study of Scripture alone references the politics
>of the day, and resonsates with political issues
>today. Social issues such as those mentioned are the
>product of political decisions and political
>maneuvering, and Friends have always shared their
>feelings on such matters. There is one politcal practice that I
>personally would wish to see less of in our midst, and that is the
>partisan vilification of those for whom one did not
>vote, or the perjoration of those who voted
>differently, wrapped in a pseudo-Friendly 'message'.
>
>>>Attempting to tar an individual, or a group, as being
>the mechanism for society's ills, would seem to miss
>several points, not the least of them Biblical.
>
>>>Thank you
>
>>>Paul Nunis
>


Larry Osborne wrote:

>Friends--Thank you Paul for speaking my mind. Messages are inevitably
>political and to pretend otherwise is to slip into egocentric thinking,
>as in--"you're being political, I'm just speaking the truth."
>
>A good source of insight on the politics of lived experience for me has
>been the thought and writings of Paulo Friere, whose context was
>education. All education is political, according to Paulo.  The Right
>likes to say "we're for excellence, the Left wants to politicize
>education."  But of course the Right's positions on education are
>political in the sense that they are driven by certain values and not
>others, certain presuppositions about reality and human behavior and
>potential and not others, certain assumptions about the purposes of
>education and not others, etc/etc. So let's admit the political
>dimensions of the realities we address in Meeting and try to gain a
>clearer consciousness our own political perspectives and "agendas."  (I
>love that word, as in the "homosexual agenda"--an implied political
>motive that people who oppose homosexual rights ascribe to those who do
>not share their viewpoint.  Surely we all have agendas, only some of
>which we are aware of.) 
>
>Perhaps we can explore not WHETHER our messages and actions in Meeting
>are political, but rather HOW do I share a concern with a message with
>its political dimension in an appropriate way.  Maybe there are
>questions of PROCESS here that need to be reflected on that resemble the
>kind of academic freedom, tolerance, and sensitivity we hope governs
>dialog in liberal arts environments.  In my psychology classes, for
>example, I tell my students, "some of this is controversial stuff. Let's
>be tough on ideas but gentle with each other. Everyone gets to speak
>once before someone speaks again.  Let's learn and practice how to
>listen. Rather than attacking or defending, let's learn to ask questions
>and try to gain a deep understanding of the other." 
>
>Paul's second point also speaks my mind, and may be a much more serious
>challenge to our faithfulness as Quakers, at least certainly to mine.
>Messages are going to be political, but we are not determined by some
>kind of behaviorism that requires an oppositional, competitive,
>enemy-image orientation towards the other.  Let's remember Gandhi and
>King; all are brothers and sisters. Our goal is truth and
>reconciliation, not the defeat of enemies. Our opponent of the moment
>has a portion of the truth, even George W. Bush! The enemy is not Bush,
>Rumsfeld and company. It is the darkness that blinds us all to some
>degree; the violence of Bush but the violence of my own heart, too.
>
>I admit this is a big thorn in my side. I frequently find myself
>overwhelmed with ill will and hate for the policies, actions, words, and
>personhood of those people who stole the 2000 election without any
>regard for truth, fairness, or building a participatory and
>consensus-based approach to governing the U.S. I need the inner light to
>open another way and help empower me to follow. Messages that speak to
>my condition are needed and helpful, not another anti-Bush diatribe.
>
>Peace and warm regards to all,
>
>Larry Osborne
>West Knoxville Friends Meeting
>
>
>
>=====
>" There is no standing above the conflict on Olympian heights...The
>artist must elect to fight for Freedom
>or for Slavery.  I have made my choice. "
>Paul Robeson
>_______________________________________________
>Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association mailing list
>sayma at kitenet.net
>http://kitenet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sayma
>
>
>End of sayma Digest, Vol 11, Issue 9
>************************************
>_______________________________________________
>Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association mailing list
>sayma at kitenet.net
>http://kitenet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sayma


-- 
Janet's new e mail address is :  jhminshall at comcast.net


From nunispablo at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 17:12:13 2003
From: nunispablo at yahoo.com (Paul Nunis)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:12:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [saymaListserv] Friends and Politics (long)
In-Reply-To: <p05210605bc077ee583b2@[192.168.1.101]>
Message-ID: <20031218211213.44727.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com>

I agree with Friend Janet Minshall that such a serious
discussion is well worth devoting electronic resources
to. War and injustice would certainly count among the
concerns that occupy my thoughts, as I am sure they do
for others. As to the manner in which Friends couch
their distress over such concerns, I would not presume
to comment on mere form or style. 

I could however, wish that some statements were chosen
with an eye toward unintended consequences. I
personally do not hold such self editing to be either
obfuscation, or at odds with Friendly notions of Truth
or plain speaking.

One such consequence might be the alienation of the
listener. While we are all Friends, we are most
assuredly not always the same. 
Labels which are handy, such as Republican, or
Democrat, etc. tend to pigeonhole the communication
into an Us/them framework, and close an awful lot of
doors and ears. 
Soon we may be left in the un-Friendly position of
preaching to the choir...<G>
(The chasm between Us and them has never to my
knowledge been narrowed by naming 'them' in connection
with a litany of wrongdoings).

Potentially more harmful in the substitution of a
uniform standard of Truth for the Friendly Integrity
testimony, is the all too human tendency to allow the
ends to justify the means.

Soon we are operating with a goal of showing 'them'
that We are owners of the Truth, and before you know
it, the goal becomes more important than either truth
or integrity...a loss too great to be dismissed
lightly.

Another concern which occurs to me, is that that
partisan labelling and finger pointing sends a very
powerful message that our concern is far more partisan
than topical.  
Are we opposed to war, or only to the current
administration's war?  
Are we opposed to greed and profiteering, or only to
one party's greed and profiteering?
(And, I would note that saying 'Well of course we are
opposed to all war, But...' can be seen as akin to a
logical double negative in that it reverses the
meaning of everything that prefaced the 'But').

So, I find reason to wish that there were more
messages that left off the partisan labels, and
focused on substance.

In closing, I guess that I feel as though we have been
putting Republicans and Democrats and other such
partisans in and out of office for quite a while now,
and I feel that there may be much more important work
being left undone if we pay too much attention to such
externalities.

Thank you

Paul Nunis






=====
" There is no standing above the conflict on Olympian heights...The artist must elect to fight for Freedom
or for Slavery.  I have made my choice. "
Paul Robeson

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/


From jhminshall at comcast.net  Thu Dec 18 21:30:01 2003
From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:30:01 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] Re: Friends and Politics (long)
In-Reply-To: <20031218211213.44727.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031218211213.44727.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p05210602bc08010935bc@[192.168.1.101]>

And thank you, Paul Nunis, for what I consider to be gentle eldering 
though I really don't know which of us is older.  By the standard of 
other Friends' messages I don't think yours is long at all.  (By the 
way, I really like the Paul Robeson quote at the bottom.)     Janet


>I agree with Friend Janet Minshall that such a serious
>discussion is well worth devoting electronic resources
>to. War and injustice would certainly count among the
>concerns that occupy my thoughts, as I am sure they do
>for others. As to the manner in which Friends couch
>their distress over such concerns, I would not presume
>to comment on mere form or style.
>
>I could however, wish that some statements were chosen
>with an eye toward unintended consequences. I
>personally do not hold such self editing to be either
>obfuscation, or at odds with Friendly notions of Truth
>or plain speaking.
>
>One such consequence might be the alienation of the
>listener. While we are all Friends, we are most
>assuredly not always the same.
>Labels which are handy, such as Republican, or
>Democrat, etc. tend to pigeonhole the communication
>into an Us/them framework, and close an awful lot of
>doors and ears.
>Soon we may be left in the un-Friendly position of
>preaching to the choir...<G>
>(The chasm between Us and them has never to my
>knowledge been narrowed by naming 'them' in connection
>with a litany of wrongdoings).
>
>Potentially more harmful in the substitution of a
>uniform standard of Truth for the Friendly Integrity
>testimony, is the all too human tendency to allow the
>ends to justify the means.
>
>Soon we are operating with a goal of showing 'them'
>that We are owners of the Truth, and before you know
>it, the goal becomes more important than either truth
>or integrity...a loss too great to be dismissed
>lightly.
>
>Another concern which occurs to me, is that that
>partisan labelling and finger pointing sends a very
>powerful message that our concern is far more partisan
>than topical. 
>Are we opposed to war, or only to the current
>administration's war? 
>Are we opposed to greed and profiteering, or only to
>one party's greed and profiteering?
>(And, I would note that saying 'Well of course we are
>opposed to all war, But...' can be seen as akin to a
>logical double negative in that it reverses the
>meaning of everything that prefaced the 'But').
>
>So, I find reason to wish that there were more
>messages that left off the partisan labels, and
>focused on substance.
>
>In closing, I guess that I feel as though we have been
>putting Republicans and Democrats and other such
>partisans in and out of office for quite a while now,
>and I feel that there may be much more important work
>being left undone if we pay too much attention to such
>externalities.
>
>Thank you
>
>Paul Nunis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=====
>" There is no standing above the conflict on Olympian heights...The 
>artist must elect to fight for Freedom
>or for Slavery.  I have made my choice. "
>Paul Robeson
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
>http://photos.yahoo.com/


-- 
Janet's new e mail address is :  jhminshall at comcast.net


From susan at read-the-bible.org  Fri Dec 19 11:03:10 2003
From: susan at read-the-bible.org (Susan Jeffers)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:03:10 -0600
Subject: [saymaListserv] RE: Politics in Meeting
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031219084731.039fc640@mail.read-the-bible.org>

Thanks so much for the discussion on whether and how to include politics in 
Yearly Meeting.

I'm a member of another Yearly Meeting (Lake Erie YM, which includes the 
lower peninsula of Michigan, northern and eastern Ohio, and 2 meetings in 
West Virginia). I subscribe to the SAYMA list because my husband and I have 
ties to Charleston WV Friends Meeting, and I like to keep up with what's 
happening with our immediate YM neighbors.  Also y'all have a REAL nice 
EMail list!

I'm especially interested in this discussion because I'm on the LEYM 
Program Committee, and wondering whether and how we should be doing 
something, program-wise, to make space for Friends political concerns to be 
aired.

Free's original post "Friends don't usually bring politics into the 
Meeting, but does President George W. Bush's focus on WAR change that? Can 
we get a discussion going at YM that raises this concern? What do you 
think?" could easily have been written by any number of LEYM Friends, as 
could his additional, more specifically "defeat Bush at the polls" addendum.

I'm sure there would also be a number of LEYM Friends (I'd be one of them) 
who would say "this Friend speaks my mind" to Paul Nunis' post:

"There is one politcal practice that I personally would
wish to see less of in our midst, and that is the
partisan vilification of those for whom one did not
vote, or the perjoration of those who voted
differently, wrapped in a pseudo-Friendly 'message'.
Attempting to tar an individual, or a group, as being
the mechanism for society's ills, would seem to miss
several points, not the least of them Biblical."

So -- what do y'all think about this?  As Larry Osborne so eloquently asks 
-- what should be our process?

Thanks again -- God's blessings to you all --

Susan Jeffers
Lake Erie Yearly Meeting Program Committee

-----------------------------------------------
EMail: susan at read-the-bible.org
Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org





From jhminshall at comcast.net  Sat Dec 20 11:24:01 2003
From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:24:01 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] RE: Politics in Meeting
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031219084731.039fc640@mail.read-the-bible.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031219084731.039fc640@mail.read-the-bible.org>
Message-ID: <p05210600bc0a0c014ef7@[192.168.1.101]>

Dear SAYMA Friends, I know many of you will be happy to hear that I 
have decided to take a vacation from writing to the Kitenet list for 
awhile. Have a wonderful holiday season and a joyous new year. Janet



Hi Susan Jeffers,  I have just received your message for the second 
time.  I think you sent it to me once and to the SAYMA list once so I 
got two.  This morning I feel more like answering it than I did 
yesterday so I will. I assume that you read my response to Paul Nunis 
and Larry Osborne on the SAYMA Kitenet list.  If not, I have attached 
it below.

I have been a Friend for twenty-five years and I find that the most 
irksome thing among Friends, in my experience, is that they have 
forgotten the traditional practice of plain speaking. Elias Hicks 
would never have used "niceness" as a substitute for dealing with 
substantive differences. In meetings where I have been a 
member/regular attender conflict avoidance was seen as the accepted 
form of peacemaking and, of course, it NEVER brought peace. 
Unacknowledged differences were simmering beneath the relatively 
quiet surface and would not go away until they were directly 
addressed.

While I agree with both Paul Nunis and Larry Osborne that the process 
of being gentle with each other often helps in communication, Friends 
tend to be too gentle, too much on the side of conflict avoidance, 
thus leaving the unacknowledged differences to fester. I hope this 
clarifies.
				Janet Minshall



>Janet Minshall wrote on 12-15-03:
>
>Dear Larry Osborne and Paul Nunis,  I sincerely appreciate your 
>responses.  It is wonderful to carry on a serious discussion on this 
>list.  This is, I believe, the most Friendly and the most productive 
>use of electronic communications.
>
>First, the intent of Free Polazzo's message, which I inadvertently 
>passed on to the Kitenet list without his permission, was to ask 
>that time be set aside at yearly meeting to address his and others' 
>spiritual concerns about how we might respond in a Spirit-led manner 
>to the war.  Those concerns have been raised by President Bush's 
>public statements that he sees this country in a state of war, of 
>ongoing conflict, for the forseeable future. Other spiritual 
>concerns arise from the Bush administration's apparent lack of 
>concern for truth, for the law, and for human rights in pursuit of 
>their economic and political goals.  Bush and some of his appointees 
>have openly stated that opposition to their goals may constitute 
>treasonable action.
>
>We as Friends have a testimony concerning Truth, specifically of 
>"one standard of truth", which is to be observed in both our public 
>and our private lives.  You suggest that we should discuss 
>spiritually troubling ideas and our concerns about them freely, but 
>not name the adherents of those ideas or hold them responsible for 
>the effects they create. This appears to me to be obfuscation, 
>Obfuscation: to confuse and obscure an issue or concern by 
>introducing extraneous information. I prefer to speak plainly, or 
>try to, as another of our testimonies--Simplicity--enjoins us to do. 
>By separating current US policy from those who have developed and 
>enforced it, you create the "wiggle room" necessary for people to 
>conclude that "Republicans and Democrats are both the same" (they 
>most certainly are not) and that by voting for someone with no 
>possibility of winning we assume and defend the higher moral ground.
>
>Friere was right, all education IS political. And I agree completely 
>that there is that of God (as well as that of the Devil) in all of 
>us.  We are called as Friends to discern which is which and do 
>something about it, not retreat into a  confusion of form with 
>substance.
>		 Janet Minshall, Anneewakee Creek Friends Worship Group
>
>
>
>
>
>Thanks so much for the discussion on whether and how to include 
>politics in Yearly Meeting.
>
>I'm a member of another Yearly Meeting (Lake Erie YM, which includes 
>the lower peninsula of Michigan, northern and eastern Ohio, and 2 
>meetings in West Virginia). I subscribe to the SAYMA list because my 
>husband and I have ties to Charleston WV Friends Meeting, and I like 
>to keep up with what's happening with our immediate YM neighbors. 
>Also y'all have a REAL nice EMail list!
>
>I'm especially interested in this discussion because I'm on the LEYM 
>Program Committee, and wondering whether and how we should be doing 
>something, program-wise, to make space for Friends political 
>concerns to be aired.
>
>Free's original post "Friends don't usually bring politics into the 
>Meeting, but does President George W. Bush's focus on WAR change 
>that? Can we get a discussion going at YM that raises this concern? 
>What do you think?" could easily have been written by any number of 
>LEYM Friends, as could his additional, more specifically "defeat 
>Bush at the polls" addendum.
>
>I'm sure there would also be a number of LEYM Friends (I'd be one of 
>them) who would say "this Friend speaks my mind" to Paul Nunis' post:
>
>"There is one politcal practice that I personally would
>wish to see less of in our midst, and that is the
>partisan vilification of those for whom one did not
>vote, or the perjoration of those who voted
>differently, wrapped in a pseudo-Friendly 'message'.
>Attempting to tar an individual, or a group, as being
>the mechanism for society's ills, would seem to miss
>several points, not the least of them Biblical."
>
>So -- what do y'all think about this?  As Larry Osborne so 
>eloquently asks -- what should be our process?
>
>Thanks again -- God's blessings to you all --
>
>Susan Jeffers
>Lake Erie Yearly Meeting Program Committee
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>EMail: susan at read-the-bible.org
>Peace Church Bible Study Home Page: www.read-the-bible.org
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association mailing list
>sayma at kitenet.net
>http://kitenet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sayma
>

-- 
Janet's new e mail address is :  jhminshall at comcast.net


From tlamm at chpl.net  Sat Dec 20 12:14:21 2003
From: tlamm at chpl.net (Tim Lamm)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:14:21 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] Request for Workshop Proposals
Message-ID: <047701c3c714$df55a070$15a8a8c0@BRADBURY1>

>From Ellen Johnson (Workshop Coordinator) and the YM Planning Committee:



Call for Workshops and Plans for YM 2004




Friends, the Yearly Meeting Planning Committee has met twice since June, and
we are making good progress with plans for the 2004 Yearly Meeting, to be
held June 10-13 at Warren Wilson College.  The theme this year will be
"Feeding the Flames of Faith: Integrating Spirit and Action."  We are
building on last year's theme of how our traditions inspire our practice.
We will have speakers and panels made up of SAYMA Friends who will share how
their faith informs their actions and how their actions deepen their faith.



In addition to Meeting for Worship for Business and speakers on the YM
theme, there will be the usual favorites: worshipping together, "chatting
and chewing," singing and dancing, wide-ranging discussion on many subjects
dear to our hearts, and of course many meals shared with F/friends from far
and near.  There are activities for children and teens through Junior Yearly
Meeting and Southern Appalachian Young Friends.  If you have never attended
Yearly Meeting, we encourage you to ask the folks at your monthly meeting
about it.  For many of us, it is a very special part of our lives.



We know that many of you have talents and knowledge that you could share
with us by leading a workshop at Yearly Meeting.  Below is a workshop
proposal form, due by Feb. 15.  The workshops will last 70 minutes, and they
can be intergenerational, involving both teens and adults.  Friends are also
encouraged to offer workshops exclusively for teens.  Workshops can be on
social justice issues, on spirituality, on art and music, on Quaker process,
or on something we haven't thought of yet!  We do ask this year that you
consider how your proposed workshop relates to the theme of the many ways
spirit and action flow into each other in our lives.  Watch for more
information on YM 2004 coming in March



Here are some of the workshop topics requested on last year's evaluation
forms.  Are you interested in taking one of these on?



Quaker Process: Workshop for First-Time SAYMA participants; Eldering;
Corporate discipline; Clerking; Quaker 101; Quaker history; How we use our
queries; Workshops that explore in-depth (not beginner level) Quaker
Testimonies, Traditions, Faith and Practice.



Also: Centering techniques for worship; Introducing children to Meeting for
Worship; Quaker Parenting; Music/Singing; Nurturing Spiritual Growth.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------



WORKSHOP PROPOSAL FORM

Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting June 10-13, 2004

Warren Wilson College, Swannanoa, NC



Form due back by February 15, 2004.



Theme: Feeding the Flames of Faith:  Integrating Spirit and Action

Workshop topics should be related to the theme of the yearly meeting



1) Title of proposed workshop:



2) Your name, address, phone number and e-mail if applicable:



3) What led you to offer this workshop?



4) How is the workshop related to the Yearly Meeting theme?



5) Tell us about your experience in leading workshops or any related
experience.



6) Give us a brief (approximately 50 word) description of your workshop.
(This information will be used to describe your workshop in the advance
program to help Friends in selecting a workshop.)



Workshop sessions will be only seventy minutes long.  Workshops will be
offered Friday afternoon and Saturday afternoon. Please help us in our
planning by completing the following  questions about your proposed
workshop:



7) Please specify which afternoon you would like to give your workshop.
Would you be willing to give your workshop twice? (Be aware that you may
have different people in each session.)



8) Will the workshop be didactic?            Interactive?



9) Would you like the participants to be adults, youth or both?



10) Would you like the participants to be men, women or both?



11) Are there limits to the numbers of participants?  Maximum?  Minimum?



12) Do you have particular requirements for your workshop?

Equipment?    Location?



13) Are there any books or similar materials related to your workshop topic
that you would like to see stocked in the bookstore at yearly meeting?



Please return this form by Feb. 15, 2004, to:



Ellen Johnson

P.O. Box 490237

Mt. Berry, GA 30149

706-506-3626

ejohnson at berry.edu











From kcarlyle at main.nc.us  Fri Dec 26 11:59:00 2003
From: kcarlyle at main.nc.us (Kim Carlyle)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:59:00 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] SAF 01-01-2004
Message-ID: <004501c3cbc9$2dfb1300$bb6dc0d1@qew>

Dear Friends,

Merry holidays from your Southern Appalachian Friend editors!

And since you already have your fingers on the keyboard, why don't you just
type up an article for the next edition (submission due date: 01-01-2004)?

Can't think of what to write? How about what would you like to see in the
new year? Peace in the world? Political change? The Cubs in the World
Series?

We also accept humor, poetry, recipes, and bribes. Don't delay. There are
only six more shopping days until the due date!


EarthPeace, Susan & Kim Carlyle

SAFeditor at SAYMA.org



    And now for something completely different...
    A candidate with a brain and a heart and a backbone!

    See www.kucinich.us    Send $$$

    Remember polls don't elect candidates, people do.





From jhminshall at comcast.net  Tue Dec 30 11:16:48 2003
From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:16:48 -0500
Subject: [saymaListserv] An Alternate Reality
Message-ID: <p05210601bc17431b2ab4@[192.168.1.101]>

Dear Friends, You may have thought that I was "the nut on the 
sidewalk holding a placard", a discription from the speech by Michael 
Crichton which you will find at the web site below.  Friends have 
long been "the nuts on the sidewalk" for unpopular causes.  If my 
frequent comments on population, the environment and economics have 
made you angry, please read this and then meditate on it.  Best 
Wishes for a Joyous New Year.
			    Janet


<http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/speeches_quote05.html>http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/speeches_quote05.html



---




-- 
Janet's new e mail address is :  jhminshall at comcast.net
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