From bright_crow at mindspring.com Thu Jul 1 10:22:45 2004 From: bright_crow at mindspring.com (Mike Shell) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:22:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [saymaListserv] Southeastern Yearly Meeting: Peace & Social Concerns Website Message-ID: <2317990.1088691765873.JavaMail.root@wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Friends, The July 1st update of http://seympeace.org has been posted. Please visit. Thanks, Mike Shell. From earthsteward at urisp.net Mon Jul 5 23:40:11 2004 From: earthsteward at urisp.net (Daryl Bergquist) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:40:11 -0500 Subject: [saymaListserv] [Fwd: Fw: appeal for shoes for peace please forward] Message-ID: <40EA1F1B.5010606@urisp.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fw: appeal for shoes for peace please forward Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:16:38 -0500 From: Sara Rose Reply-To: Sara Rose To: Daryl Bergquist Daryl can you put this on kite-net or whaytever? thanks. love, sara ----- Original Message ----- From: Sara Rose To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 10:13 PM Subject: appeal for shoes for peace please forward Hello. I write to ask for your help and soon. please DO forward this to all you think would respond. If you are from a Friends Meeting, please forward this to your clerk or person in charge of announcements. If you have an e-mail or phone tree, that would be helpful. Thank you. I am deep in a project to make the effects of the war on Iraq more visible in the rural Alabama county where I live. A group of Buddhist monks and others, are walking through our state for peace, and coming through our county (Blount County, county seat is Oneonta). I am organizing an exhibit to coincide with their arrival. It is called Interrupted Lives, and consists of a pair of shoes for every fallen American soldier, and a scroll with footprints representing the Iraqi civillians who have died in the war, too. These will line the highway (on the sidewalk) along which the Peace Walkers will walk into town. When they arrive, we will have a multi-faith Prayer Vigil for Peace. This has never been done before. I got the idea, after Daryl, my partner, heard an NPR program on a similar project that American Friends Service Committee (AFSC), a Quaker service organization, put together, which is of boots for each fallen soldier. Their project has been in Chicago, Washingotn, D.C., and is now in Philadelphia. Many people here in the county have never left northern Alabama. The shoes here represent the other roles the soldiers had in their lives. I met with Mary Ellen McNish, AFSC's General Secretary, at our Yearly Meeting (SAYMA) in early June. AFSC gave me their permission, their blessings, and good advice on how to put it together. The exhibit already has aquired a life of it's own and will travel to Cullman, Alabama, for the Peace Walk there, sponsored by Cullman area Quakers, then on to Huntsville, where Huntsville Friends are welcoming the walkers. Now, with 2 weeks left before the exhibit begins and the monks arrive, we still need 600 pairs of shoes! Can you ask everyone you know to go through their closets and send me men's shoes, any type? It would really help. If they don't have shoes, some people have gone to the thrift store. One generous woman from Birmingham Monthly Meeting sent a check for the thrift store here. I have received shoes in the mail, and via UPS and FedX, from far off states. It's still not too late if people do it right away. Thank you! Sara P.S. Several drop off places are listed below. We need the shoes by Thursday July 15. Interrupted Lives c/o Sara Rose 442 Red Maple Rd. Blountsville, AL 35031 205-429-3088 rivkahdara at urisp.net Oneonta Public Library boxes are inside library (closed on Thurs. Sat aft., Sun) Birmingham Friends Meeting House 4413 5th Ave. South. boxes on back porch of the meeting house. Tell them heading east, it's on the right just before 5th Ave., So. turns onto Crestwood Blvd. A big white house with a sign. Parking in rear. A Huntsville residence: boxes on front porch The address is 1209 McCullough Av., just east of Lacy. Owner would prefer folks don't knock to say they're leaving things - they can just dump and run! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Shoe appeal letter.doc Type: application/msword Size: 25088 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Peace Pilgrimage Flyer from monks.doc Type: application/msword Size: 27136 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Peace Walk Route.dat Type: application/octet-stream Size: 7668 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PSA Community -Wide Coved Dish Supper.doc Type: application/msword Size: 20480 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PSA for Peace Walk.doc Type: application/msword Size: 20992 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PSA Shoes.doc Type: application/msword Size: 20480 bytes Desc: not available URL: From freepolazzo at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 00:34:34 2004 From: freepolazzo at comcast.net (free polazzo) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:34:34 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] Fwd: Water profiteers on PBS tonight Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040713003203.02c91c88@mail.comcast.net> Dear Friends, In case you didn't already hear about this documentary: >Don't miss the national broadcast premier of THIRST - a new docu- >mentary film about the impacts of water privatization. > >We are proud to let you know that our new film, THIRST, will have its >National Broadcast Premiere Tuesday **July 13, 10 pm (check local >listings) on PBS's acclaimed "P.O.V." (Point of View) series. > >THIRST is the first film to focus on what is becoming the 21st Cen- >tury's major source of conflict: Who has the right to water? Is water >part of a shared "commons", a human right for all people? Or is it a >commodity to be bought, sold, and traded in the global marketplace? > >THIRST reveals dramatic confrontations over these fundamental >questions in Bolivia, India and the United States. > >This groundbreaking film reveals how efforts by powerful corporations >to commodify the world's water supplies have become the catalyst >for community resistance to globalization. > >We hope you get a chance to watch THIRST. > >Sincerely, > >Alan Snitow and Deborah Kaufman >Snitow Kaufman Productions > >"Riveting and provocative." (Highest rating) >Jonathan Curiel, San Francisco Chronicle > >"Captivating... THIRST is like a message in a bottle sent from the >future. It tells the beginning of what could be one of the major >political and economic issues to shape the next century. Don't say >they didn't warn you." >Paul Busse, Portland Mercury > >"Beautiful and engaging." >Carl Pope, Executive Director, Sierra Club > >"THIRST is fabulous. A moving and inspiring film" >Sandra Postel, Global Water Policy Project > >"THIRST skillfully weaves together the passion and pain of battles >over water with beautiful images, passionate characters and lots >of action." >Eduardo Sousa, Council of Canadians > >for more information: www.thirstthemovie.org or >http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2004/thirst/ From jhminshall at comcast.net Sat Jul 17 21:22:37 2004 From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:22:37 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] The Truth About Economic History (relevant to Friends Testimony on Truth) Message-ID: Dear Friends, I have included part of a message from me to Glenn Reinhart of Brooklyn (NY) Meeting. He is currently working to start an International Friends in Business group in the US along the lines of one which exists in the UK. "I am just getting into a new book (which Free found and gave to me) recently released with great reviews called "The Birth of Plenty" by William J. Bernstein. He indicates that he had considerable research and editorial help and support from staff of Money Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, Public Radio and others involved in financial journalism. The book is a really well-written narrative about the last two hundred years of economic history. It is based on conclusions which Quaker economist Jack Powelson came to and published more than ten years ago in "Centuries of Economic Endeavor" (whether Bernstein knows that or not). I'm only just into the book so I cannot say that it is completely accurate from my point of view, but it seems to be so far. I would recommend it highly to those who realize that they need better facts about economic history than they have depended upon in the past." I hope AFM and SAYMA Friends will read the book referenced above. It really is unusually well-written, and interesting, especially for a book about economics. Best Regards, Janet Minshall Best Regards, Janet From CIsland at aol.com Sat Jul 24 13:45:11 2004 From: CIsland at aol.com (CIsland at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:45:11 EDT Subject: [saymaListserv] Meetinghouse resident needed, Chattanooga Message-ID: <62.4127a77e.2e33fa27@aol.com> Chattanooga Meeting will have a vacancy for a meeting house resident to occupy a room beginning near the middle of September . Anyone interested in residing in the meeting house should contact Craig Davoulas, clerk of the Property-Oversight Committee, at (423) 629-5914 or at the meeting's address, 335 Crestway Drive, Chattanooga, TN, 37411. The second-floor room is a large one, and the resident will be expected to bring in and sort the mail, answer the telephone, vacuum the meeting room weekly, and keep the public areas neat and tidy. All utilities, including telephone, are provided. A stove, refrigerator, and microwave are available for the resident's use. The house is not air conditioned, but it is surrounded by trees and is seldom overly hot, even in the heat of summer. It is on a bus line. The rent, designed to cover utilities and insurance, is nominal, approximately $200 monthly, depending on what other duties the resident is willing and able to do. Bill Reynolds, for Chattanooga Friends Meeting -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhminshall at comcast.net Sun Jul 25 20:09:12 2004 From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:09:12 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] A Dangerous Cult In Our Midst (just humor) Message-ID: July 10, 2004 Subject: Mathematicians are Democrats At Phoenix Sky Harbor airport today, an individual later discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a setsquare, a slide rule, and a calculator. At a morning press conference, Attorney General John Ashcroft said he believes the man is a member of the notorious al-Gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI with carrying weapons of math instruction. **"Al-Gebra is a fearsome cult," Ashcroft said. "They desire aver- age solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret code names like 'x' and 'y' and refer to themselves as 'unknowns', but we have determined they belong to a common denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country. As the Greek philosopher Isosceles used to say, "There are 3 sides to every triangle.'" When asked to comment on the arrest, President Bush said, "If G-d had wanted us to have better weapons of math instruction, He would have spoken to me about it and given us more fingers and toes." From jhminshall at comcast.net Mon Jul 26 13:29:33 2004 From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:29:33 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] Fwd: Re Quaker Outreach Forum: Any experience in starting new worship groups??? Message-ID: X-Sender: freepolazzo at mail.comcast.net Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:01:01 -0400 To: Quaker_Outreach_Forum at yahoogroups.com From: free polazzo Subject: Re: QOF RE: any experience in starting new worship groups??? [TANGENT] Hello Johan Maurer, The services you suggest we "find" or "invent" are already happening here in the SE USA. Atlanta Friends Meeting (Unprogrammed) has had people bring musical instruments and play, when moved, and people singing with others moved to join in, gathered meetings and so on for at least the last twenty years. We do bible study when people in the Meeting are led to lead it and others show up. We do Meetings for Healing when someone is led to do that. We start worship groups when we people from AFM move to the suburbs and realize that there is that of God in every suburbanite, too. We have "weighty" friends come for weekend workshops at our "Gathered Meeting" Retreats. We help new attenders go to Yearly Meeting and FGC Gathering to soak them in the community we call Friends. (Sort of a Baptism in the Light and Darkness of Friends.) We have Wider Quaker Organizatons representing the MM in the Service aspects of Friends' Testimonies on Equality, Simplicity, Community and Integrity. We have a Yearly Meeting Faith and Practice that cares as much about WG's as they do Monthly Meetings and Preparative Meetings. We have a strong YM Teen program to bring in and keep youth and Youth's parents. This weight has finally gotten to the place where WG's are being formed in the Atlanta Metropolitan Area. (3 for now) This strong base helps our worship groups to grow in the "shelter" of the larger and more experienced MM. They have members that can help neophytes over the "humps". I will be bringing a model for strengthening our YM's MMs so that they can support WG's that are sorely needed in our part of the country. To me, the KEY to Quakerism growing amongst us, is to build strong Monthly Meetings which will then be able to shepherd WG's in their "back yards". If some worship group wants to start in the Boonies (and we do have alot of area between MMs), then I will be proposing the our YM's Ministry and Worship Committee establish an Outreach Committee that will consist of the WG's in the YM and those from MM's that are "sponsoring" WG's and/or Preperative Meetings. Great that the QOF is dealing with the topic, at last. Free At 08:20 PM 7/25/2004, you wrote: >This is a bit of a tangent - these are reflections from reading >a fascinating book, _The Younger Evangelicals_ by Robert E. >Webber. I originally wrote these thoughts to a British Friend. > >- Johan > >-------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'm reading Robert Webber's fascinating book The Younger >Evangelicals. I think this book would open a lot of British >Friends' eyes if they had the ability to read past the title. >The most interesting thing about the book is the creativity >bubbling in the evangelical community as those whose adulthood >began approximately with the new century either overcome or >ignore or are blissfully unaware of the defensiveness of the >20th century evangelical movement, and of the modernist >captivity generally. The replacement of objective apologetics >with "embodied" apologetics (our most important evangelism is >the evidence of the reality of Christian community) is one of >the core elements of this shift. > >What particularly amazes me as I read this and similar books >is the capacity of Friends to incarnate all this beautifully. >Unprogrammed Friends who were ablaze with this stripped-down >ecclesiology and passionate christology could turn the world >upside down, because we would be staking ALL on the reality of >the Holy Spirit. For example, when a small group of us at >Reedwood began an alternative worship service on Monday >evenings at Reedwood, based on contemporary music, nformality, >brief reflections rather than sermons, great big gobs of >silence, food and drink afterwards, etc., we STILL had the >overhead of having to get the worship leaders together for >planning and so on, and with all the best will in the world, >there was still a tiny element of incongruity in the planning >of spontaneity. What if the musicians just got together when >they wanted to, in order to try out new things, but then played >at the worship meeting whatever they felt led to play >or what worshippers felt led to ask for? What if there were no >sermon at all, but the burden of the teaching ministry (a >CRUCIAL ministry) were done at a separate time - before, >after, a different day, or whatever? What if the tone of both >the meeting for learning and the meeting for worship were so >safe and free that people could praise, cry, laugh, pray by >stream-of-consciousness language, pray the prayers of ancient >mystics, confess doubts and mistakes, and if something >couldn't be dealt with in one setting, it could tenderly be >referred to the other? Much of our discussions have been over >the acceptability of passionate Christianity in British >Quakerism, but I think an equally important topic for >SOMEWHERE is the wonderful adequacy of the vessel offered by >classic Quakerism for the expression of postmodern >Christianity. > >There are several books out there that express the creative >genius of postmodern evangelicalism, some of the most glitzy >of which are products of Leonard Sweet. (Maybe you've seen his >Web site.) But Robert Webber's rather dry and plodding >description, the product of a scholar formed a couple of >iterations ago in the evolution of evangelicalism in the USA, >is actually one of the most useful. > >-------------------------------------------------------------- > >A couple of additional points I'd love to make for THIS forum: > >1) Many Friends who either have no recent experience of >informal worship in other churches, or have such negative >associations of the theology or leadership culture elsewhere >that they cannot stand to be in those settings, may not >realize how powerful the music can be in those meetings for >worship, and how they give an outlet for gifts and emotions >that are often marginalized in purist unprogrammed settings. >I'm envisioning new hybrid forms of unprogrammed worship that >might use such music for the gathering time, and then would >continue to have such music happen either as the musicians are >led, or in response to the currents of prayer and vocal >ministry in the rest of the meeting. > >2) I've argued elsewhere that pastoral doesn't have to mean >programmed. In the Quakerism of the future, I am sure there is >a place for pastors or church planters who don't necessarily >have worship leadership included in their roles, and whose >meetings worship in an unprogrammed or semi-programmed way. > >3) This Quaker Outreach Forum already has a fascinating set of >links/bookmarks - including these: "GenX, PoMo Church >movement." > > > >===== >------------------------------------------------------- >Johan Maurer, Portland, Oregon, USA >johanm at mindspring.com >Project forum: >http://maurers.home.mindspring.com/evangelism.htm > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > QUAKERS: Visible-Accessible-Helpful-Hospitable. > >"I HAVE EXAMINED MYSELF AND TESTED MYSELF AND FOUND CHRIST JESUS IN ME." >George Fox, Epistle 301 (1673)in The Works of George Fox, 1831 and >1990. #1:18 in Ambler, Truth of the Heart, 2001. (Topic: Experience) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nc_stereoman at charter.net Tue Jul 27 11:52:36 2004 From: nc_stereoman at charter.net (Steve Livingston) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:52:36 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] speaking truth to power in the post-9/11 world Message-ID: <41064204.25189.23066892@localhost> Friends, Suppression of First Amendment rights to free speech have been significantly curtailed due to the assimilation of both public property and media by huge corporations, and the resulting limitations of opportunity for ordinary citizens to address one another in public forums. At the same time, popular media have evolved to serve the same kinds of corporate interests most responsible for corrupting our elected government - media unabashedly guided by the purpose of disseminating propaganda aimed at misleading our fellow citizens into supporting decisions that are not in the best interest of our nation nor the goals that fair-minded and compassionate people, including Quakers, share. Indicative of the abysmal state of citizens' right to petition their government for redress of grievances were the tactics used by municipal police departments in the name of "protecting the protesters" during the run-up to the Iraq invasion, ranging from refusal to allow peaceable assembly in public places to corraling protesters in narrow streets and attacking them with tear gas and horses. A new low is now being reached, exemplified by the so-called "Free Speech Zone" near the Democratic national Convention in Boston. For those who have not seen nor heard of this travesty, I strongly encourage you to know what is happening in your country today! I further encourage you to consider the warning of Pastor Niemoller in the context of our contemporary circumstances, and lose no time in speaking truth to power, no matter the risk: First they came for the Communists... then they came for the terrorists... then they came for the Palestinian sympathizers... then for the Liberals... I offer for your consideration a letter posted to my local newspaper today: Editors: Your coverage of the Democratic National Convention offered a peek at the status of our First Amendment rights in the post-9/11 environment: �armed officers standing guard along a seven-foot-tall metal security fence that ringed the convention complex� . . . �Protests were scattered . . . � Around the corner is the Court-approved �Free Speech Zone�, a construction site ringed with chain link and razor wire, heavy netting overhead, naked girders at forehead level. Many have chosen to surrender their rights rather than using this detention area, whose human capacity is a mere 1,000. Boston Police disparaged the First Amendment with this disingenuous statement: �Our space downtown is really not ideal. There was almost nowhere for a free-speech zone.� Condoleeza Rice testified before the 9/11 Commission that an August 2001 Presidential briefing �did not, in fact, warn of any coming attacks inside the United States.� The briefing was titled �bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States.� The National Security Advisor�s felonious duplicity epitomizes the current Administration�s utter disregard for the well-being of American citizens, which has resulted in thousands of deaths, destruction of other countries and of our international reputation, and now the loss of our First Amendment rights. Steve Livingston -- Steve Livingston nc_stereoman at charter.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhminshall at comcast.net Tue Jul 27 13:03:27 2004 From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:03:27 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] Re: book you recommended In-Reply-To: <20040727131446.28973.qmail@webmail-2-6.mesa1.secureserver.net> References: <20040727131446.28973.qmail@webmail-2-6.mesa1.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Hi Susan, You ask some very good questions. I wrote my recommendation of that book before I had even gotten half way into it, but am even more enthusiastic about the book now than when I sent out that message to Atlanta Meeting and SAYMA Friends awhile back. It isn't easy to make economic history interesting, accessible and even (dare I say it) engrossing. ( For those of you who didn't see my recommendation the first time round it was: THE BIRTH OF PLENTY, by William J. Bernstein, published this year by McGraw-Hill. It can be ordered from www. amazon.com for about twenty dollars new or fifteen dollars used or ask your local librarian to order it and put yourself first on the list to read it when it comes in. It is a very readable book about economic history from its beginnings to the present, but focusing most on the last two-hundred years.) The estimate at this point from economists studying offshoring is that each job that is offshored creates at least two jobs in the US in response to the economic benefits incurred by the company. Those jobs tend to be higher paying with better benefits than the ones that went abroad. Those new jobs in the US cover the whole range of employment from low-level office staff to supervisors, to techs and managers in order to address the need for greater output from the company. The source of new jobs in the world is and always has been closely related to the level of innovation. The US and has been ahead in the area of innovation (new and better ideas) for nearly a century. Our future employment prospects depend not on restricting the process of offshoring jobs, but on the level of innovation we can maintain. Workers displaced by offshoring need good, effective job retraining to prepare them for the higher level jobs that are and will be available in the future. This process of job retraining starts with the public school systems around the country. If we improve the schools (as India has done using the British model) more of our high school graduates will be prepared for the new technologies and services which are being developed. I think Bernstein addresses GDP further along, but it really is not as important as understanding the process described above. Best Regards, Janet >Hi Janet -- > >I just started reading a book you recommended on the SAYMA list recently >(The Birth of Plenty, by Bernstein) , and I have a really basic >economics question. > >I have some concept of per capita GDP, and it makes sense to me that it >would be a good measure of overall economic prosperity. It also makes >sense to me that close to 100% of the population engaged in full-time >agriculture means the society is about as close to bare subsistence as >you can get. However I'm having a hard time relating this to >consumption patterns, and the concern many of us have about US >manufacturing moving offshore. If we're not making the stuff, our GDP >is lower by that amount, right? And the Americans who would have >earned the wages making the stuff don't have that money to spend >anymore. If our per capita GDP continues to rise, somebody else must >be doing something for money -- who is that? Highly specialized >technical types? Managers of multinational corporations? > >I'm pretty fuzzy on the specifics of what gets counted in GDP. I tried >to look it up on the web, and found a simple definition at >http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/econ0025.htm, but that left me >more confused as it seems to be mixing apples and oranges - personal >consumption + government expenditures? Inventory growth I can see, >because that would be the stuff we made beyond what we used. > >I love the idea that we as a country produce X amount collectively, and >get to consume that much collectively. I'm purposely postponing the >question of distribution of wealth & income, since I think the author >will eventually get to that, at least as it pertains to international >affairs. My real question is, what are the most significant components >of current US GDP, that are offsetting the losses due to moving >manufacturing type production to other countries. And how do they >reflect "production" -- producing useful goods and services? > >Thanks for any words of wisdom you'd care to share --- > >I really like the book so far -- thanks so much for recommending it! > >Susan Jeffers From jhminshall at comcast.net Tue Jul 27 17:01:21 2004 From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:01:21 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] Re: [afmdiscussion] Re: book you recommended In-Reply-To: <000701c47410$48689a10$6101a8c0@amd1gig> References: <20040727131446.28973.qmail@webmail-2-6.mesa1.secureserver.net> <000701c47410$48689a10$6101a8c0@amd1gig> Message-ID: Hi Julia, I've been called lots of names and compared with lots of people, but never Marie Antoinette! Yes, you are exaggerating to make a point but I have been known to do that at times, so go to it. (You also contradict yourself in a few places.) In my message I say clearly that the jobs created in this country are at all levels. The lower level jobs do not require much in the way of retraining and they are available now, not in ten years. Higher level jobs would, undoubtedly require retraining and retraining is, indeed, available. Actually, John Sweeney President of the AFL-CIO has had the foresight and wisdom to make job retraining a priority for union members and, I think the AFL-CIO also provides retraining at a fee payable over time to non union workers. The Democrats, in their wisdom, have proposed an extensive no-cost job retraining program if elected, so VOTE DEMOCRAT! You say: "At the end of the day it is just not good enough to say, "Well, a little economic disruption and social dislocation is bound to happen in the course of progress." It may not be good enough, Julia, but it is and has always been the unpleasant reality that innovation and change inevitably bring economic disruption and social dislocation. Not only should workers begin to plan better for that reality, but other unions and educational institutions should too. Janet >Janet M wrote: > >> Workers displaced by offshoring need good, effective job retraining >> to prepare them for the higher level jobs that are and will be >> available in the future. This process of job retraining starts with >> the public school systems around the country. If we improve the >> schools (as India has done using the British model) more of our high >> school graduates will be prepared for the new technologies and >> services which are being developed. > >It's very nice that kids graduating from high school five or ten years down >the road >will be hired for these great jobs. However, the workers being displaced >today are not >being retrained for better jobs, unless it is at their own expense. And just >what are these displaced >workers living on while retraining, if they are lucky enough to have savings >out of which > to pay for retraining? It is a matter of months or years to retrain for >"better jobs". >How many of *us* are prepared to live on savings for that amount of time and >finance >retraining? > >The tax code does not encourage retraining. Education and training expenses >are deductible only if they pertain to the business that you are already in. >Most of the new jobs are not in the companies that have off-shored the old >jobs. The new jobs are usually technical or service oriented, whereas the >off-shored jobs are production oriented. The tax code regards retraining for >a better job in another industry as a hobby or a sort of spare time >entertainment...Of course if you have no job, and no income against which to >write it off, I suppose that becomes a moot point. But the government's >attitude toward the value of retraining to the national economy is certainly >shown. > >The average American worker not only does not have savings, but has an >appallingly high level of debt including mortgage or car payments and maxed >out credit cards. >Also after COBRA (which is prohibitively expensive for many) runs out, those >between jobs >are uninsured for medical problems. One medical emergency can wipe out >savings, if > we are lucky enough to have them. > >When laid off workers cannot pay their bills and merchants and others fail >to receive money for goods conveyed to said workers, the businesses's bottom >lines suffer. Foreclosures >do not contribute to productivity, and every home sold below market value in >order to pay the mortgage holder and or the state taxes contributes to a >slowing or even decline in real estate values, which as of now are the only >really strong performing investment. Were it not for the real estate's >steady rise, the recession would be a real depression. It still could >happen. > >As more people experience financial disaster, there will be fewer dollars >available to buy the goods being brought in from the offshore operations. >Not only will the jobs have followed the cheaper labor and work site costs >overseas, but increasingly the consumer markets will be found overseas as >those overseas jobs put more money into pockets abroad. Rather than >importing the finished products for reshipment back to these new consumers, >the products will be marketed abroad, increasing profits by decreasing the >transportation costs and administration involved... Instead of the >anticipated increase in support and administrative jobs here, we will find >that the companies will be taking those jobs either closer to the source of >production or closer to the consumer market or both. > >By the time our young people graduate from high school and college so well >qualified for those wonderful jobs, we will be exporting our young people as >well--because guess where those jobs will be! NOT HERE! >We will be a nation of the elderly, the under-educated and the >under-employed, who are basically performing service functions for the last >generation of elderly Americans who actually reach retirement age with some >pensions and savings... > >But there's a ray of hope. Like countless bankrupt countries without >industry and without educated workers, we may be able to eke out some >foreign exchange with which to buy American company goods from the offshore >operations...by living off tourists. Of course that assumes we will have any >natural attractions following the removal of environmental protections or >any historic sites to see after all the grant money that sustains them dries >up and moves offshore along with the moneyed patrons who run the >corporations that have taken all our jobs abroad... > >Yes, I am exaggerating to make a point. While it may not turn out to be >quite as grim a picture as I have painted, it is also not going to be nearly >the wonderful scenario that is being painted by proponents of the offshore >movement of jobs. > >At the end of the day it is just not good enough to say, "Well, a little >economic disruption and social dislocation is bound to happen in the course >of progress." It is cold comfort to those who were formerly working full >time with full benefits for good pay and now, if they are lucky enough to be >working at all, are working for substantially less per hour, fewer hours per >week and with greatly reduced or even no benefits at all. And that is not >counting all the people who no longer are visible in either the employed >statistics or the unemployed statistics, having run out of unemployment >money and having given up on finding a job, are no longer counted as being >jobless, even though they have no work and no income... > >But, so what if there is no bread? Let them eat cake--Some time in the next >five or ten years-- It's much nicer anyway! > >Julia From nc_stereoman at charter.net Tue Jul 27 23:28:40 2004 From: nc_stereoman at charter.net (Steve Livingston) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:28:40 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] re: outsourcing Message-ID: <4106E528.14046.2583AD32@localhost> According to the Global Insight Study commissioned by the Information Technology Association of America, offshoring of computer work "has created 90,000 new jobs in the U.S. through 2003". According to the U.S. Dept. of Labor statistics, 90,000 IT jobs were lost to offshoring during the year 2003. It sounds nice to say that offshoring creates two new jobs for every job that it takes away, but I have a hard time staying focused on the platitudes without being distracted by trying to follow the money trail. It seems to make more sense to look at the number 90,000 in terms of a percentage of the total work force - that would be 0.07 percent - and wonder if maybe it makes more sense to address the jobs issue from a different perspective. As an analogy, how much time should you spend putting in that new home security system if your foundation is rotting away? Steve From jhminshall at comcast.net Wed Jul 28 09:05:25 2004 From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:05:25 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] re: outsourcing In-Reply-To: <4106E528.14046.2583AD32@localhost> References: <4106E528.14046.2583AD32@localhost> Message-ID: Hi Steve, It may make you feel better, somehow, to think of the US as a house whose foundation is rotting away due to outsourcing, but that isn't the reality. If we buy a house and keep it for twenty or thirty years, here in the South, the foundation may well be rotting away due to termites, or powder post beetles or carpenter ants. After twenty or thirty years, however, we have the responsibility to either have our foundation repaired and treated for termites or buy a new house. The economy is similar. Any particular innovation produces employment for just so long and then either the process of production is improved and the product or service continues to be bought and sold, or it becomes outdated and is replaced by something new and better. Your concern about our economic foundation being rotted is rather like bemoaning the passing of the black and white TV. Well maybe we could have lived with black and white but no one would now buy one of those old sets given the choice of having a color TV at a much, much lower price. The Soviet Union tried to force continued consumption of black and white TVs (because that is what their companies and workers were set up to build) but the black market in color TVs became so dominant that it put the state-owned builder of black and white TVs out of business anyway. Do you think that forcing a particular pattern of consumption would make our economic foundation more sound? I don't. Many companies which have outsourced customer service jobs to other countries are now bringing them back to the US. If a person who does not speak English as a first language fails to understand the needs of someone who does, then it doesn't make any sense for the company to outsource that particular kind of job -- the product they are buying in another country doesn't really meet their needs. But if IT (information technology) jobs can be done as well in India as here, then that work will go where it can be done most economically. And new jobs will be available in the US to meet the needs of increased production made possible by the economic savings achieved by the outsourcing of IT. I remember during the VietNam War when many of us were out protesting and living in communes in the city, or moving out into the countryside to grow our own food and pretend we weren't part of the military/industrial complex (I did both). The constant refrain was "Oh I can live anywhere and eat anything, but I have to have my stereo (what we used to call a good sound system back then), or "I can live anywhere as long as I can get organic foods", or "as long as I can have hot water", or "as long as I can have electric lights and books to read". Fill in the blanks with what you have to have and that gives you the basis of the free market economy. And the free market economy requires well educated entrepreneurs and managers as well as educated workers to have the flexibility to keep up with innovation and change. When we lose our jobs or our businesses we have to go back to school or into a retraining program to learn what has changed and what is most needed now. The mistake many have made is to assume that what was true yesterday will also be true today and tomorrow. Janet >According to the Global Insight Study commissioned by the >Information Technology >Association of America, offshoring of computer work "has created >90,000 new jobs >in the U.S. through 2003". > >According to the U.S. Dept. of Labor statistics, 90,000 IT jobs were >lost to offshoring >during the year 2003. > >It sounds nice to say that offshoring creates two new jobs for every >job that it takes >away, but I have a hard time staying focused on the platitudes without being >distracted by trying to follow the money trail. > >It seems to make more sense to look at the number 90,000 in terms of >a percentage >of the total work force - that would be 0.07 percent - and wonder if >maybe it makes >more sense to address the jobs issue from a different perspective. >As an analogy, >how much time should you spend putting in that new home security >system if your >foundation is rotting away? > >Steve > >_______________________________________________ >Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association mailing list >posting address: sayma at kitenet.net >subscribe/unsubscribe: http://kitenet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sayma From nc_stereoman at charter.net Wed Jul 28 12:36:57 2004 From: nc_stereoman at charter.net (nc_stereoman at charter.net) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:36:57 +0000 Subject: [saymaListserv] re: outsourcing Message-ID: <3a5h63$4eonj8@mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Hello Janet, I appreciate your symapthy for what you interpreted as my position, but your interpretation leads me to believe that firther clarification is in order. My posted opinion stated that outsourcing accounts for only a minute percentage of total jobs, and my analogy equated fears of outsourcing to a desire to install an alarm system. The crumbling foundation had nothing to do with outsourcing, but rather with the "foundation" of US economic superiority in the second half of the twentieth century, which was manufacturing, and is now most certainly "crumbling away". Perhaps my point would have been more obvious if I had used the term "rusting away" (rusting, Rust Belt). Your example of black and white versus color TV is interesting but I find it very limited in terms of the evolution of our workforce. Certainly many TV's were once manufactured in the U.S., and the point in time that B&W gave way to color corresponds pretty closely to the time that TV manufacturers began their migration to Mexico and the Far East. Beyond that I don't see where the example is particularly germane, and I don't feel it begins to address the monumental changes that have been taking place in our workforce and continue into this new millenium. Your question about "forcing patterns of consumption" goes to the very heart of the Quaker testimonies of "right sharing" and "simplicity"; specifically, if international agreements and regulations imposed upon manufacturers to pay the full and entire cost of their processes, e.g. environmental and human costs as well as cost of raw materials, machinery and technology, it would undoubtedly lead to a much less consumptive lifestyle on the part of Americans due to the greatly increased cost of the end product. As a Quaker I will take any opportunity to speak in favor of such restrictions, to increase the possibility of a more sustainable future and greater equity among people of every continent. Steve From jhminshall at comcast.net Wed Jul 28 19:35:59 2004 From: jhminshall at comcast.net (Janet Minshall) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:35:59 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: [saymaListserv] re: outsourcing Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:33:16 -0400 >To: >From: Janet Minshall >Subject: Fwd: Re: [saymaListserv] re: outsourcing >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >Hi Steve, I don't see the Quaker testimony of simplicity or the >concept of right sharing as having any component of force implied in >them. There is no reason why pollution and its effect on the >environment cannot be regulated in the interest of the Earth and its >inhabitants just as dangerous toys and children's equipment such as >carseats and cribs are regulated so that they are safe for children >IF that is what we choose to do as a democratic people here in the >US. I'd say that if the Republicans win this election it is a clear >sign that we haven't convinced most people in the US of the dangers >of pollution and environmental degradation. We won't know that we >have convinced enough people until most of them see pollution as a >serious threat which requires action and they vote accordingly. If, >on the other hand, the Democrats win then we clearly have a leg up >in the battle for a cleaner environment and regulations can be >formulated and put in place to the extent that most people support >them. > >Quaker testimonies and practices have always relied on convincement, >not force. You can speak all you want in support of forced >restrictions, but I don't think that approach will be effective. >The reason I raised all the different kinds of material posessions >and services that we feel we "have to have" is to show that we do >not all agree on them. Even those of us who have agreed together >that we want a cleaner environment do not agree on them. When the >group of stakeholders is widened to include those from other >countries then it will be much harder to get agreement. Many people >who live in Less Developed Countries want some of the same material >posessions and services that we take for granted here and they will >not be satisfied with assurances from Quakers or environmentalists >about what is best for the Earth and therefore for them. They are a >group who have to be included in any kind of democratic process. >More people to convince. You cannot have your sustainable future >for the US workforce without including them and they will be a lot >tougher to convince than US Republicans or US-based multinational >corporations. Janet > >(Did you see the film "The Next Industrial Revolution" at Yearly >Meeting? It was suggested as a resource by Quaker Earthcare >Witness. Several people at the showing said it gave them hope for >the first time in a long time.) > > > > > > > >>X-Originating-IP: [209.225.28.213] >>X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,94,1089000000"; >> d="scan'208"; a="149708392:sNHT13484756" >>From: >>To: Janet Minshall >>CC: , >>Subject: Re: [saymaListserv] re: outsourcing >>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:36:57 +0000 >> >>Hello Janet, >> >>I appreciate your symapthy for what you interpreted as my position, >>but your interpretation leads me to believe that firther >>clarification is in order. >> >>My posted opinion stated that outsourcing accounts for only a >>minute percentage of total jobs, and my analogy equated fears of >>outsourcing to a desire to install an alarm system. The crumbling >>foundation had nothing to do with outsourcing, but rather with the >>"foundation" of US economic superiority in the second half of the >>twentieth century, which was manufacturing, and is now most >>certainly "crumbling away". Perhaps my point would have been more >>obvious if I had used the term "rusting away" (rusting, Rust Belt). >> >>Your example of black and white versus color TV is interesting but >>I find it very limited in terms of the evolution of our workforce. >>Certainly many TV's were once manufactured in the U.S., and the >>point in time that B&W gave way to color corresponds pretty closely >>to the time that TV manufacturers began their migration to Mexico >>and the Far East. Beyond that I don't see where the example is >>particularly germane, and I don't feel it begins to address the >>monumental changes that have been taking place in our workforce and >>continue into this new millenium. >> >>Your question about "forcing patterns of consumption" goes to the >>very heart of the Quaker testimonies of "right sharing" and >>"simplicity"; specifically, if international agreements and >>regulations imposed upon manufacturers to pay the full and entire >>cost of their processes, e.g. environmental and human costs as well >>as cost of raw materials, machinery and technology, it would >>undoubtedly lead to a much less consumptive lifestyle on the part >>of Americans due to the greatly increased cost of the end product. >> >>As a Quaker I will take any opportunity to speak in favor of such >>restrictions, to increase the possibility of a more sustainable >>future and greater equity among people of every continent. >> >>Steve From nc_stereoman at charter.net Thu Jul 29 01:00:48 2004 From: nc_stereoman at charter.net (Steve Livingston) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:00:48 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: [saymaListserv] re: outsourcing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <41084C40.6182.2AFE610E@localhost> I wouldn't call it a "component of force" that I see in Quaker testimonies either, Janet. I prefer to think of it as "energy" myself - our practice of Quaker testimony generates an "energy", a breath of Spirit moving over the ocean of the Universe, for example speaking truth to power, or advocating for international environmental regulations such as the Kyoto Protocol or the Earth Charter. My Monthly Meeting endorsed the Earth Charter just recently. The Preamble of the Earth Charter calls on us to "join together to bring forth a sustainable global society founded on respect for nature, human rights, economic justice, and a culture of peace." I find those goals closely aligned with my own fondest dreams. I don't feel it is my duty to "convince" anyone of anything, I can only lay claim to a leading to speak my truth, and a belief that the speaking itself has value. I will be disappointed if the current Administration is reinstated come November, it will be a real setback. But in terms of the "energy" I feel right now, the "force" if you will (or "The Force" in Jedi terms), what I sense as the movement of Spirit in the universe, I am willing to put my eye on the prize right now. I am optimistic that there has been a sea change and the pendulum is swinging the other way even now. Nevertheless, I accept that I could be wrong. In that event, I plan to continue doing what I am doing now anyway, taking the responsibility that I am also a part of the problem and addressing my own habits, yet speaking openly in favor of simplicity and right sharing even though I have yet to attain those goals myself. I don't know how much success I will have. None of us can. We CAN however hold each other in the Light as we seek to live our principles. I also find that the holding in the Light itself has value. "It is more than looking at the positive," a Friend recently observed, "I believe it is living in the possibility, much of what is already present." Steve From timlally at comcast.net Thu Jul 29 02:50:33 2004 From: timlally at comcast.net (Tim Lally) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:50:33 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] Re: Outsourcing References: <41084C40.6182.2AFE610E@localhost> Message-ID: <001101c47538$595b98d0$6500a8c0@PC271733269866> This excerpt from "Meeting the Spirit - An Introduction to Quaker Beliefs and Practices" may have some bearing on the current discussion: "Simplicity "There is certainty among Friends that the world offers many distractions from the Truth, for example the pursuit of wealth or power or pleasure, extravagance in language, fashion or behaviour, and too great an emphasis on business, even for good causes. Truth is usually discovered in quiet, undistracted waiting for its leadings in the human heart, in the humble simplicity of spirit which acknowledges that ultimately God is in charge of our world, not we ourselves. "The testimony of simplicity seeks, therefore, to focus our attention on what is essential and eternal, without distraction by the transitory or the trivial. Plain and honest speech is an expression of simplicity. Respect for God's creation and, therefore, concern for the environment and the right use of the world's resources is another obvious expression of this testimony. A growth economy based on extravagance, wastefulness and artificially stimulated wants is seen to be a fundamental violation of the testimony of simplicity." For the text of the complete document, click here: http://emes.quaker.eu.org/meeting-the-spirit.html . God's Peace, Tim Lally, attending Chattanooga Meeting =================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Livingston" To: ; ; "Janet Minshall" Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 1:00 AM Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [saymaListserv] re: outsourcing > I wouldn't call it a "component of force" that I see in Quaker testimonies either, > Janet. I prefer to think of it as "energy" myself - our practice of Quaker testimony > generates an "energy", a breath of Spirit moving over the ocean of the Universe, for > example speaking truth to power, or advocating for international environmental > regulations such as the Kyoto Protocol or the Earth Charter. My Monthly Meeting > endorsed the Earth Charter just recently. The Preamble of the Earth Charter calls > on us to "join together to bring forth a sustainable global society founded on respect > for nature, human rights, economic justice, and a culture of peace." I find those > goals closely aligned with my own fondest dreams. I don't feel it is my duty to > "convince" anyone of anything, I can only lay claim to a leading to speak my truth, > and a belief that the speaking itself has value. > > I will be disappointed if the current Administration is reinstated come November, it > will be a real setback. But in terms of the "energy" I feel right now, the "force" if you > will (or "The Force" in Jedi terms), what I sense as the movement of Spirit in the > universe, I am willing to put my eye on the prize right now. I am optimistic that there > has been a sea change and the pendulum is swinging the other way even now. > > Nevertheless, I accept that I could be wrong. In that event, I plan to continue doing > what I am doing now anyway, taking the responsibility that I am also a part of the > problem and addressing my own habits, yet speaking openly in favor of simplicity > and right sharing even though I have yet to attain those goals myself. > > I don't know how much success I will have. None of us can. We CAN however hold > each other in the Light as we seek to live our principles. I also find that the holding > in the Light itself has value. "It is more than looking at the positive," a Friend recently > observed, "I believe it is living in the possibility, much of what is already present." > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association mailing list > posting address: sayma at kitenet.net > subscribe/unsubscribe: http://kitenet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sayma > From freepolazzo at comcast.net Thu Jul 29 20:46:35 2004 From: freepolazzo at comcast.net (free polazzo) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:46:35 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] Outsourcing and the Spirit In-Reply-To: <3a5h63$4eonj8@mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3a5h63$4eonj8@mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040729093109.02b02b60@mail.comcast.net> Hi Janet and Steve, I want to join the discussion on Globalization by also give more current examples of outsourcing and how economics and environmental health and innovation go hand in had. I will present decisions I made as a consumer and as a businessperson. My lungs don't work so good after having been damaged by Chronic Sarcoidosis http://www.mssm.edu/medicine/pulmonary/sarcoidosis/information.shtml) and so I am much more aware of the air's quality than most healthy folks are. When I started shopping for a car 3 years ago I decided that I would looking for a way to help keep the air as clean as possible. Recently I accepted delivery on a 2004 Toyota Prius which was build using Hybrid Fuel Technology. http://www.toyota.com/prius/ The reason I selected the Prius was that it made the best low emissions vehicle I drove. My only other choice was Honda, another import. There were no American cars to compare them with that had even tried to produce cleaner exhaust emissions. Thanks to the free marketplace, I had a choice that would not have been available if we had barriers to keep out foreign competition. So, most of my cash went to Japan along with many jobs, I'm sure. I feel badly that I couldn't "buy Arerican", but not because I "bought Japanese". Our Testimony on Equlity tells me that a Japanese worker is just as important to me as an American worker. And besides, I'm an "import", too having been born in Naples, Italy and immigrating here with my mom when I was 2 years old. Importing is an old American tradition, as most of you know by looking at your family trees. What I am upset about is that US automobile company workers did not even have a chance to get into the selection process because of bad decisions made by their co-workers at Ford and General Motors and Chrysler. By not resisting the status quo and making the fundamental changes necessary to produce a lower emissions vehicle, the Amrican automobile industry workers (I'm include management as workers) "voted" to continue to produce gas guzzling dinosaurs. In fact SUV's have become the major money makers for those car companies. Japanese workers "voted" to not support the status quo and took the risk of producing new cars which cut pollution substantially. They did this at high risk and made a huge investment to come up with a better way to live. Instead of thanking the Japanese car workers for their bravery and long range view, the American labor movement relies too heavily on waving the flag to sell cars. My (and your) lungs can't breathe "American Flags". I think that the recent uproar over outsourcing is only different from what happened 20 or 30 years ago because it is jobs formerly held by professional and white collar workers that are being competed for by people from poorer countries. Until very recently, only manufacturing or blue collar jobs went "south". Now, the office worker, the professional worker, the academician, the artist and their children have been placed in the same position as the blue collar worker and their families have been in for decades. The advances in Information Technology (IT) has made it much easier to communicate across the world. Now, jobs that involve communications are being competed for by the entire world. The IT industry itself is a major implimenter of the "Borderless Economy". (My term for Globalism) of which my company, Friendly Systems, is just a teeny part. I receive a call once a month or so from someone representing software that is manufactured in Asia or India. This software is equal to or better than software that previously was only available to very large companies. . AND at a fraction of the cost. Now, smaller businesses can get the software that they need to compete with the bigger companies, without spending the kind of money that the bigger enterprises needed to spend in the past. A more "equal" footing is created for the smaller businesses and this may lead to more jobs in those companies that can figure out how to provide what their neighbors want, better than anyone else. See our website at www.friendlysystems.com Part of why I am "Free" is that I learned how to use this new tool to create a new type of organization that allow us at Friendly Systems to have work we enjoy in an environment that we choose. People in our company all work from their homes or at the businesses of our allies (customers). Sure, not everyone can do this. It took years of training and adopting a new way of dealing with organizations over a 23 year period for this to happen. My point is that I was able to create an environment where I could put my Spiritual values at work because of these new improved tools that are now available to all at a very reasonable cost. Please, let's not make the worker on the other side of the world or the person who hires them our enemy any more than we would make someone from Boston, NY or LA or Atlanta our enemy for "taking" a job that we think belongs to us. I pray that we see that the Spirit is answering many Friends' prayers about "helping the poor". Remember all those homilies about "teaching someone to Fish. . . " ? Well, Friends, what we have prayed for is happening. Why are we so worried? The redistribution of resources across the planet is happening much faster than most anyone imagined. That Governments and Churches are not the ones that are doing the redistribution should be no surprise to Quakers. Those organizations are about maintaining the status quo (see both major party conventions if you need proof). Also see Jack Powelson's book "Cenuries of Econmic Endevour" that shows, using his knowledge of history and economics how wealth is created and distributed better in some societies than in others. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0472084267/103-4393532-7552661?v=glance It is businesses that are redistributing the wealth. I believe that the Spirit is at work in this redistribution process. And we, in America, will all be living "simpler" lives because of it. Is that so bad? Blessings, Free At 12:36 PM 7/28/2004, you wrote: >Hello Janet, > >I appreciate your symapthy for what you interpreted as my position, but >your interpretation leads me to believe that firther clarification is in order. > >My posted opinion stated that outsourcing accounts for only a minute >percentage of total jobs, and my analogy equated fears of outsourcing to a >desire to install an alarm system. The crumbling foundation had nothing to >do with outsourcing, but rather with the "foundation" of US economic >superiority in the second half of the twentieth century, which was >manufacturing, and is now most certainly "crumbling away". Perhaps my >point would have been more obvious if I had used the term "rusting away" >(rusting, Rust Belt). > >Your example of black and white versus color TV is interesting but I find >it very limited in terms of the evolution of our workforce. Certainly many >TV's were once manufactured in the U.S., and the point in time that B&W >gave way to color corresponds pretty closely to the time that TV >manufacturers began their migration to Mexico and the Far East. Beyond >that I don't see where the example is particularly germane, and I don't >feel it begins to address the monumental changes that have been taking >place in our workforce and continue into this new millenium. > >Your question about "forcing patterns of consumption" goes to the very >heart of the Quaker testimonies of "right sharing" and "simplicity"; >specifically, if international agreements and regulations imposed upon >manufacturers to pay the full and entire cost of their processes, e.g. >environmental and human costs as well as cost of raw materials, machinery >and technology, it would undoubtedly lead to a much less consumptive >lifestyle on the part of Americans due to the greatly increased cost of >the end product. > >As a Quaker I will take any opportunity to speak in favor of such >restrictions, to increase the possibility of a more sustainable future and >greater equity among people of every continent. > >Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepolazzo at comcast.net Fri Jul 30 08:42:16 2004 From: freepolazzo at comcast.net (free polazzo) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:42:16 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] The Equality Testimony as a better way to end terrorism Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040730082204.02be9880@mail.comcast.net> Dear Friends, Barbara Ehrenreich describes, in an editorial column in today's NY Times, how to fight terrorism without using the military. Bring equal rights to women in countries that deny them to follow the Light as they see fit. A great idea who's time is way past due! Will the Patriarchy listen? Isn't our Testimony on Equality one of the key paths to peace? If you agree, let's encourage both political parties to walk their talk (Testimony on Integrity) and come out for true equal rights for women, everywhere! Blessings, Free The New Macho: Feminism July 29, 2004 By BARBARA EHRENREICH The Dems couldn't be more butch if they took to wearing codpieces. Every daily convention theme contains the words "strength" or "strong," and even Hillary has been relegated to the role of wife. The idea, according to the pundits, is that with more than half of the voters still favoring Bush as the guy to beat bin Laden, Kerry needs to show that he's macho enough to whup the terrorists. Of course, everyone knows that the macho approach is notably less effective than pixie dust - otherwise, we wouldn't be holding our political conventions under total lockdowns. Well, I've been reading bin Ladin - Carmen, that is, not her brother-in-law Osama (she spells the last name with an "i") - and I'd like to present a brand-new approach to terrorism, one that turns out to be a lot more consistent with traditional Democratic values. First, let's stop calling the enemy "terrorism," which is like saying we're fighting "bombings." Terrorism is only a method; the enemy is an extremist Islamic insurgency whose appeal lies in its claim to represent the Muslim masses against a bullying superpower. But as Carmen bin Ladin urgently reminds us in "Inside the Kingdom," one glaring moral flaw in this insurgency, quite apart from its methods, is that it aims to push one-half of those masses down to a status only slightly above that of domestic animals. While Osama was getting pumped up for jihad, Carmen was getting up her nerve to walk across the street in a residential neighborhood in Jeddah - fully veiled but unescorted by a male, something that is illegal for a woman in Saudi Arabia. Eventually she left the kingdom and got a divorce because she didn't want her daughters to grow up in a place where women are kept "locked in and breeding." So here in one word is my new counterterrorism strategy for Kerry: feminism. Or, if that's too incendiary, try the phrase "human rights for women." I don't mean just a few opportunistic references to women, like those that accompanied the war on the Taliban and were quietly dropped by the Bush administration when that war was abandoned and Afghan women were locked back into their burkas. I'm talking about a sustained and serious effort. So John and John: Announce plans to pour dollars into girls' education in places like Pakistan, where the high-end estimate for female literacy is 26 percent, and scholarships for women seeking higher education in nations that typically discourage it. (Secular education for the boys wouldn't hurt either.) Expand the grounds for asylum to all women fleeing gender totalitarianism, wherever it springs up. Reverse the Bush policies on global family planning, which condemn 78,000 women yearly to death in makeshift abortions. Lead the global battle against the traffic in women. I'm not expecting these measures alone to incite a feminist insurgency within the Islamist one. Carmen bin Ladin found her rich Saudi sisters-in-law sunk in bovine passivity, and some of the more spirited young women in the Muslim world have been adopting the head scarf as a gesture of defiance toward American imperialism. We're going to need a thorough foreign policy makeover - from Afghanistan to Israel - before we have the credibility to stand up for anyone's human rights. You can't play the gender card with dirty hands. If Kerry were to embrace a feminist strategy against the insurgency, he'd have to start by addressing our own dismal record on women's rights. He'd be pushing for the immediate ratification of the U.N. Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, which has been ratified by 169 countries but remains stalled in the Senate. He'd be threatening to break off relations with Saudi Arabia until it acknowledges the humanity of women. And he'd be thundering about the shortage of women in the U.S. Senate and the House, an internationally embarrassing 14 percent. We should be aiming for at least 25 percent representation, the same target the Transitional Administrative Law of Iraq has set for the federal assembly there. In my dreams, you say, and you're probably right. Maybe Kerry will surprise me in his speech tonight, but it looks as if the Democrats are too frightened of being labeled "girlie men" by the party of Schwarzenegger to do what has to be done. If you want to beat Osama, you've got to start by listening to Carmen. Thomas L. Friedman is on leave until October, writing a book. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/29/opinion/29ehre.html?ex=1092189495&ei=1&en=610a57a9f4bfc3d2 For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nc_stereoman at charter.net Fri Jul 30 12:48:29 2004 From: nc_stereoman at charter.net (Steve Livingston) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:48:29 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] The Equality Testimony as a better way to end terrorism In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040730082204.02be9880@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <410A439D.24785.32ACA56F@localhost> Great ideas from Ehrenreich, good enough IMHO that it doesn't seem necessary to base them on false premises. A cursory reading of the principle addresses at the Convention this week reveals a great deal that the "Dem's could be more butch about". I am particularly impressed by last night's address by Senator Kerry, in which he spent a scant amount of time in the War Room, favoring instead the subjects that have been most prominent in ALL of the speeches, contrary to what Ehrenreich's asessment would lead one to believe. Those subject are the ones that "macho men" don't talk about, such as health care, education, equal rights for all citizens. And they are framed in terms that "macho men" shun, such as fairness and truth, community, cooperation. Did Ehrenreich hear or read Barak Obama's address? His entire speech was laced with references to his family, his mother, his grandmother. To this admittedly male listener, it just doesn't pass muster as a codpiece champion. And finally, I must take issue with Ms. Ehrenreich's reference to Kerry's "dismal record" on feminist issues. She implies that he is responsible for the failure of the UN CEDAW to pass Congress, for example. In fact, he is one of the seven Senators who voted in favor of bringing the ratification issue to the floor, but it was stonewalled by the Republican majority. In fact, Kerry's sister Peggy addressed this very issue in a speech to a NOW/Feminist Majority gathering in Boston this week, and presented the candidate's intention to restore $34 billion to international family planning, among other decidedly un-macho positions. There is much to be accomplished in our country in bringing about equality for all of our citizens. It is productive for us to have an opportunity to flesh out the salient issues and see how they reflect upon our values as Quakers. I found Ms. Ehrenreich's essay to be disingenuous, but in rebutting what I viewed as her misleading statements, I find myself easier with the prospect of voting for a candidate who does not share my level of commitment to pacifism. Every time I research the Kerry position more deeply, I find I like it better. I hope it is not because of my codpiece. Steve From listener at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 31 15:11:54 2004 From: listener at bellsouth.net (Kit Potter) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:11:54 -0500 Subject: [saymaListserv] missing child picture & contact Message-ID: <003e01c47732$3dbd41e0$6701a8c0@heyoka> -- If anyone anywhere knows anything, sees anything, please contact the original screen name that sent this, which is mailto: CMINEO0295 at aol.com LOOK AT THIS PICTURE AND THEN FORWARD--PLEASE DON'T DELETE PLEASE LOOK AT PICTURE THEN FORWARD I am asking you all, begging you to please, forward this email on to anyone and everyone you know, PLEASE. I have a 5 year old son named Christopher John Mineo Jr, nickname C.J. I am from Brooklyn N.Y. He has been missing since May 11 I am including a picture of him. All prayers are appreciated!! It only takes 2 seconds to forward this on, if it was your child, you would want all the help you could get. Please. Christopher John Mineo Sr Stephanie M. Lawton Office Manager New York State Independent Living Council, Inc. 111 Washington Avenue, Suite 101 Albany, New York 12210 All prayers are appreciated!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 80589 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nc_stereoman at charter.net Sat Jul 31 23:56:24 2004 From: nc_stereoman at charter.net (Steve Livingston) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:56:24 -0400 Subject: [saymaListserv] missing child picture & contact In-Reply-To: <003e01c47732$3dbd41e0$6701a8c0@heyoka> Message-ID: <410C31A8.1013.3A367DF6@localhost> Please check these kind of rumors thoroughly before posting. http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/children/mineo.htm Steve From jewen at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 27 15:29:13 2004 From: jewen at bellsouth.net (jewen at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:29:13 -0000 Subject: [saymaListserv] Re: [afmdiscussion] Re: book you recommended References: <20040727131446.28973.qmail@webmail-2-6.mesa1.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <000701c47410$48689a10$6101a8c0@amd1gig> Janet M wrote: > Workers displaced by offshoring need good, effective job retraining > to prepare them for the higher level jobs that are and will be > available in the future. This process of job retraining starts with > the public school systems around the country. If we improve the > schools (as India has done using the British model) more of our high > school graduates will be prepared for the new technologies and > services which are being developed. It's very nice that kids graduating from high school five or ten years down the road will be hired for these great jobs. However, the workers being displaced today are not being retrained for better jobs, unless it is at their own expense. And just what are these displaced workers living on while retraining, if they are lucky enough to have savings out of which to pay for retraining? It is a matter of months or years to retrain for "better jobs". How many of *us* are prepared to live on savings for that amount of time and finance retraining? The tax code does not encourage retraining. Education and training expenses are deductible only if they pertain to the business that you are already in. Most of the new jobs are not in the companies that have off-shored the old jobs. The new jobs are usually technical or service oriented, whereas the off-shored jobs are production oriented. The tax code regards retraining for a better job in another industry as a hobby or a sort of spare time entertainment...Of course if you have no job, and no income against which to write it off, I suppose that becomes a moot point. But the government's attitude toward the value of retraining to the national economy is certainly shown. The average American worker not only does not have savings, but has an appallingly high level of debt including mortgage or car payments and maxed out credit cards. Also after COBRA (which is prohibitively expensive for many) runs out, those between jobs are uninsured for medical problems. One medical emergency can wipe out savings, if we are lucky enough to have them. When laid off workers cannot pay their bills and merchants and others fail to receive money for goods conveyed to said workers, the businesses's bottom lines suffer. Foreclosures do not contribute to productivity, and every home sold below market value in order to pay the mortgage holder and or the state taxes contributes to a slowing or even decline in real estate values, which as of now are the only really strong performing investment. Were it not for the real estate's steady rise, the recession would be a real depression. It still could happen. As more people experience financial disaster, there will be fewer dollars available to buy the goods being brought in from the offshore operations. Not only will the jobs have followed the cheaper labor and work site costs overseas, but increasingly the consumer markets will be found overseas as those overseas jobs put more money into pockets abroad. Rather than importing the finished products for reshipment back to these new consumers, the products will be marketed abroad, increasing profits by decreasing the transportation costs and administration involved... Instead of the anticipated increase in support and administrative jobs here, we will find that the companies will be taking those jobs either closer to the source of production or closer to the consumer market or both. By the time our young people graduate from high school and college so well qualified for those wonderful jobs, we will be exporting our young people as well--because guess where those jobs will be! NOT HERE! We will be a nation of the elderly, the under-educated and the under-employed, who are basically performing service functions for the last generation of elderly Americans who actually reach retirement age with some pensions and savings... But there's a ray of hope. Like countless bankrupt countries without industry and without educated workers, we may be able to eke out some foreign exchange with which to buy American company goods from the offshore operations...by living off tourists. Of course that assumes we will have any natural attractions following the removal of environmental protections or any historic sites to see after all the grant money that sustains them dries up and moves offshore along with the moneyed patrons who run the corporations that have taken all our jobs abroad... Yes, I am exaggerating to make a point. While it may not turn out to be quite as grim a picture as I have painted, it is also not going to be nearly the wonderful scenario that is being painted by proponents of the offshore movement of jobs. At the end of the day it is just not good enough to say, "Well, a little economic disruption and social dislocation is bound to happen in the course of progress." It is cold comfort to those who were formerly working full time with full benefits for good pay and now, if they are lucky enough to be working at all, are working for substantially less per hour, fewer hours per week and with greatly reduced or even no benefits at all. And that is not counting all the people who no longer are visible in either the employed statistics or the unemployed statistics, having run out of unemployment money and having given up on finding a job, are no longer counted as being jobless, even though they have no work and no income... But, so what if there is no bread? Let them eat cake--Some time in the next five or ten years-- It's much nicer anyway! Julia