[saymaListserv] Re: Regarding Quaker Social Concerns for the
World's Poor)
Janet Minshall
jhminshall at comcast.net
Fri Jul 1 15:28:08 EDT 2005
Hi Nancy Winfrey, Regardless of what you think of Jack's writing he
has been a practicing Quaker most of his life. He speaks the truth of
an economist in his eighties who has worked unceasingly in countries
around the world, on behalf of economic development. He taught
economics for fifty years or more and retired from the University of
Colorado just a few years ago. Through The Quaker Economist he tries
to share with us his distillation of all that work and life
experience. Rather than just pouring forth "largely capitalist
arguments" Jack is, and has been for many years trying to help
Friends understand that many of them are ignoring reality and the
truth of what is actually happening in the world. Indeed he acts on
leadings and principles as a matter of habit.
It is not a good idea for anyone to accept things "as they are".
Quakers most certainly cannot do so. But it really is essential for
people who wish to change things to understand the situation they are
in before they go off trying to make change. It is like having a
compass and knowing where you are before you start off on a hike.
Your generalizations about Jack's writing tell me not about him (I
know him), but rather about you. I went into political economics in
mid-life because I had some of the same misconceptions about
economics as you apparently do. I had learned from the the Civil
Rights Movement, the Anti-War (Viet Nam) Movement and the Women's
Movement and I knew all the politically correct arguments. What I
didn't know was that there was a whole world of information and
experience, even real wisdom, that I had summarily dismissed in my
political correctness. What I didn't know was that there were and
have been great changes taking place in the world and that
corporations and capitalists were not necessarily the bad guys and
labor union representatives were not always truthful and the good
guys. I learned economics, real economics, not political correctness,
from a Harvard-trained radical Socialist. What he found out and
passed on to all his students was that we must examine our facts a
lot more carefully and pay attention to hard figures,especially when
they call into question our current beliefs.
If we as Friends really wish follow our testimony on Truth we must
assume that our leadings will be in the direction of calling into
question some of our most cherished current beliefs. Best Regards,
Janet Minshall
Nancy Winfrey wrote on 7-1-05:
>Janet - Thank you for forwarding these articles. However, I stopped
>subscribing to, and reading the Quaker Economist some time ago after
>exchanging emails with the writer. He insists that historical
>economics are the way to go. Quakers in general have never accepted
>things "as are", but have historically worked to change things
>according to leadings and principals. The arguments that this
>economist uses are largely capitalistic, citing growth always as the
>engine to better tomorrows for the poor, while Friends generally
>work to practice "walking lightly upon the earth", and if you study
>John Woolman (my current project), to live simply and put God first.
>I'm sorry, but this economist seems to me to be a spokesman (however
>honestly) for the status quo, and I have to disagree with him on
>basic principals. I, too have studied economics through the years,
>have three certificates in the subject from three different
>colleges. I still say that changing the human heart and subsequent
>practices is the answer, which can only be accomplished one person
>at a time. I cannot, and will not accept this economist's arguments
>for the status quo!
>
>Nancy Winfrey
>
>-------Original Message-------
>
>From: <mailto:jhminshall at comcast.net>Janet Minshall
>Date: 06/29/05 11:44:59
>To: <mailto:sayma at kitenet.net>sayma at kitenet.net
>Subject: [saymaListserv] Fwd: Re: Sweet victory ahead on debt
>relief? (regarding Quaker social concerns for the world's poor)
>
>Dear SAYMA Friends, This issue of he Quaker Economist and the
>correspondence below it are relevant to several conversations I had
>with SAYMA Friends at yearly meeting. As always, any response is
>welcome. Janet Minshall
>
>
>Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:32:49 -0400
>To: afmdiscussion at yahoogroups.com
>From: Janet Minshall <jhminshall at comcast.net>
>Subject: Re: Sweet victory ahead on debt relief? (regarding Quaker
>concerns for the world's poor)
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>Dear Friends, The Quaker Economist #125 has just come out and I
>reprint it here in response to a question from Joe Parko. (His
>message and my response to him are below the text of TQE 125.) In
>Peace, Janet Minshall
>
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>Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:07:16 -0400
>From: Jack Powelson <jack.powelson at colorado.edu>
>To: The Quaker Economist <tqe at quaker.org>
>Subject: The Quaker Economist, Letter No. 125
>Reply-To: tqe-comment at quaker.org
>
>Leadings
>
>Inter-Mountain Yearly Meeting's keynote topic (2005) was "Leadings."
>Unfortunately, I missed the keynote speaker because I was taking Robin
>(my wife) to the hospital for a heart problem (she's OK now). But
>Friends were talking afterward about leadings, and I had many
>conversations.
>
>Every day, one young girl was wearing a traditional Quaker dress and
>bonnet. Why, I asked her? "Because," she replied with a smile, "God
>told me to." One Quaker said he favored forgiving debts of Third World
>countries, because "Jesus forgave." I wondered whether accepting the
>leadings of God or Jesus means that Quakers no longer think for
>ourselves.
>
>Let me illustrate.
>
>Minimum wage. Many Friends are led to demand a higher minimum wage,
>because workers do not earn enough on which to live. But the history
>of minimum wage shows that it causes unemployment, is racially
>prejudiced, brings inflation, and finally leaves the purchasing power
>of workers about where it was before. It does the first because, with
>higher wages to pay, employers shift to machines (like the computer)
>and fire (or fail to hire) workers. It does the second because the
>ones they fire (or do not hire) are usually the minorities against
>whom they are prejudiced. It does the third because workers culturally
>know their places in a hierarchy, and to keep them they demand higher
>wages up the line. It does the fourth because higher wages cause
>higher prices, and workers ultimately have no more purchasing power
>than earlier. (Yes, I'm an economist, and I know some economic
>history.) Though the sequence is not exact, all this is generally what
>has happened in economic history. In one case of higher minimum wages
>in the United States annually for two decades, the unemployment of
>Blacks went up from less than 10% to more than 40%. (Other factors may
>have been at work, but surely wages were one cause.)
>
>Forgiving debts. On June 11, the "Big Eight" agreed to cancel $40
>billion of debts of many countries in Latin America and Africa to the
>World Bank and other international institutions, provided their
>governments agree to an anti-corruption campaign and other "good
>practices." "Everyone" agrees that these debts would never be paid
>anyway, but the countries were nevertheless paying interest annually
>(out of new loans from the Word Bank, of course). To prevent losses to
>international institutions (mainly the World Bank), the Big Eight
>governments promised them grants in compensation.
>
>A debt is a contract, and whoever breaks a contract, for whatever
>reason, becomes "branded" in the international debt market. That does
>not mean they may never borrow again, but it does mean that incoming
>investment will be curtailed, as it now is in Argentina and
>Bolivia. But investors do not believe that "good government practices"
>can be imposed by an outsider anyway (and neither do I). There is,
>however, a precedent in international law that a succeeding government
>may renege if a dictator borrows, pockets the money, and vanishes.
>
>BUT the Argentines defaulted on their government debt because of their
>own profligacy, and the Bolivian government canceled an unpopular
>water contract with a U.S. company. It was not a good contract, and
>the people were right to protest. But these exceptions matter little
>in the international economy. Debts must be paid and contracts
>honored, or much-needed foreign investment will not be
>forthcoming. One Quaker at IMYM told me he was "led" to forgive debts
>because "Jesus forgave." I wonder if Friends are led (by God or Jesus)
>to ask for policies that will damage the very countries they wish to
>protect.
>
>My proposal, instead, is to form an international bankruptcy court to
>determine, country by country, how much can be repaid and who will
>suffer the losses (just like a domestic bankruptcy court). Countries
>going bankrupt will be "branded" in international finance just as
>bankrupt people are branded in domestic finance, but that cannot be
>helped.
>
>Outsourcing. For decades the United States has been assisting
>Third-World countries financially. Now, suddenly, we are "outsourcing"
>jobs to, say, India. Outsourcing is the only way in which Indian
>wages can rise (the aid was minimal and helped little). Yet some are
>led to oppose outsourcing; we prefer to keep American jobs for
>American workers (and pay higher prices as a result). BTW: The very
>firms that outsource also "insource" by hiring more skilled foreign
>workers than the unskilled jobs they outsource. But outsourcing is
>not the only reason for unemployment. Our employment is held down by
>machinery (see two paragraphs above). The bank's teller machines make
>it unnecessary to hire so many live tellers, and online buying cuts
>down the number of store clerks needed. We do not seem to complain
>about these, however.
>
>Anti-globalization. Many Friends have leadings against globalization,
>thinking that if we globalize, multinational corporations (MNCs) will
>"rule" the world. In fact, those nations that have globalized (freeing
>trade and easing the entry for MNCs) are the very ones that have
>increased the income of their poor, while for those that have not done
>so, the poor remain in poverty. Consider the cases of South Korea
>versus North, or Taiwan and Hong Kong versus mainland China, or
>Singapore versus Indonesia.
>
>Multinational corporations. Many Friends are led to believe that MNCs
>abuse the poor abroad. In fact, MNCs provide jobs, raise wages
>(sometimes 100% higher), and supply social services (housing,
>education) much more than do local corporations. They follow this
>policy because it brings them the best workers. To most residents in
>less developed countries -- have you asked them? -- a job with an MNC
>is a plum.
>
>Keeping resources at home. So many Bolivians are protesting that
>newly-discovered gas should be kept in the ground and not sold to
>MNCs. As a result, that is where it remains, and the country is in an
>uproar. They say the price will rise in the future. But many
>economists think otherwise. First, it would have to increase about 7%
>a year to equal alternative investment possibilities. Second, some
>economists believe the price of gas will fall because alternative
>means of energy will be discovered. What are you led to believe?
>
>Work conditions in trade agreements. Many Friends are led to demand
>that trade agreements be conditioned on good working conditions and
>provision of social services. All well and good, except that history
>does not work that way. Historically, trade with others increases the
>incomes of both parties as well as trust for each other. Only when
>their incomes are increased do they provide the social services and
>higher wages.
>
>How to raise the incomes of the poor. Besides economic growth, the
>only way to increase the incomes of the poor in less developed
>countries is to improve their education and skills. In some ways this
>is happening, as in micro-lending. But it will not happen by Quakers
>(or others) being led to interfere with international policy in ways
>that seem "good" but ultimately are adverse to the poor.
>
>Sincerely your friend,
>
>Jack Powelson
>
>
>================================================================
>
>ABOUT THE QUAKER ECONOMIST
>
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>
>PUBLISHER AND EDITORIAL BOARD
>
>Publisher: Russ Nelson, St. Lawrence Valley (NY) Friends Meeting.
>
>Editorial Board
>
>- Loren Cobb, Boulder (CO) Friends Meeting, Editor.
>- Chuck Fager, Director, Quaker House, Fayetteville, NC.
>- Virginia Flagg, San Diego (CA) Friends Meeting.
>- Valerie Ireland, Boulder (CO) Friends Meeting.
>- Jack Powelson, Boulder (CO) Meeting of Friends.
>- Norval Reece, Newtown (PA) Friends Meeting.
>- J.D. von Pischke, a Friend from Reston, VA.
>- John Spears, Princeton (NJ) Friends Meeting.
>- Geoffrey Williams, Attender at New York Fifteenth Street Meeting.
>
>Members of the Editorial Board receive Letters several days in advance
>for their criticism and comment, but they do not necessarily endorse
>the contents of any of them.
>________________________________________________________
>
>Copyright (c) 2005 by John P. Powelson. All rights reserved.
>Permission is hereby granted for non-commercial reproduction.
>
>
>
>Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:19:35 -0400
>To: "Joe Parko" <parkoj at bellsouth.net>
>From: Janet Minshall <jhminshall at comcast.net>
>Subject: Re: Fw: Sweet victory ahead on debt relief?
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>Hi Joe, I actually wrote about this a few years ago in the Winter
>2001 issue of Friendly Woman in an article called "Economics, A Pop
>Quiz".
>
>In the article I used a series of statements gathered from Friends
>around the country, and then I responded to them. Statement 6 was:
>
>"We, as Friends, must support the iniative called Jubilee 2000 whose
>focus is to forgive the debts of countries around the world."
>
>My response was (and is) "It is clear that loans to many less
>developed countries (LDCs) were made inappropriately as the result
>of intense political pressure and/or inaccurate information obtained
>about the countries' ability to repay. Those loans should most
>certainly be written off by the lenders as "bad debts" and lending
>policies should be thoroughly reviewed to preclude repeating the
>same mistakes in the future. This reality has already been
>recognized in the highest echelons of global capitalism as the only
>practical alternative to resolve the ongoing problem of trying to
>collect debts which are actually uncollectable.
>
>If a country does not meet the requirements to become a borrower of
>funds for development, they should have ready access to development
>grants which do not have to be repaid. Friends need to be strongly
>supportive of such grants to the poorest countries.
>
>However, if a country legitimately qualifies and applies for a loan,
>for whatever purpose, that loan should be honored and repaid. Think
>about the process followed to teach people financial responsibility
>in this country. Credit is granted in small amounts and then a
>person's credit limit is increased on the basis of timely and
>reliable repayment. Is that unfair? Do we encourage young adults
>just starting out to take on as much debt as possible because the
>debts they undertake will be "forgiven" anyway?. No, that isn't the
>message we want to send, that isn't the example we want to set.
>
>What happens when well-intentioned people apply for and take on too
>much debt? We have a process called debt consolidation which allows
>people to receive free counseling and help (from Consumer Credit
>Counseling Service) on how best to pay off the debts they have
>contracted. Does it work? People who have been through the process
>tell me it works very well. If these are the standards we hold for
>honoring loans contracted among ourselves, are they not the
>processes we wish to share with other countries in process of
>development? Anything less would be patronizing.
>
>In addition, holding countries to their contracts to repay the debts
>they owe will work far better than wars to unseat exploitative
>leaders who divert resources aimed at bettering the lives of their
>people into their own pockets. Already several LDCs have arrested
>former leaders and officials to regain control of their economies."
>
>I don't think I can say it any better than that. Best Regards, Janet
>
>(Feel free to share this if you wish)
>
>
>
>
>
>Janet,
>What are your thoughts on this? I rely on you for Quakerly advice in
>the realm of economics.
> Joe
>
>
>
>The following document was sent as an embedded object but not
>referenced by the email above:
>Attachment converted: Janet's HD:BackGrnd 1.jpg (JPEG/ogle) (000278BC)
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