Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [saymaListserv] Fwd: Re: Is Population Decline A Greater Threat Now Than Population Growth?

Janet Minshall jhminshall at comcast.net
Mon Sep 13 18:52:20 JEST 2004

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:45:17 -0400
To: To: 
<asa at wdn.com>,<flagg at mail.sdsu.edu>,<nelson at crynwr.com>,<wilkins at phillynews.com>,<Jspears at tweedy.com>,<vireland at att.net>
From: Janet  Minshall <jhminshall at comcast.net>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [saymaListserv] Fwd: Re: Is Population 
Decline A Greater  Threat Now Than Population Growth?
Cc: freepolazzo at comcast.net

Hi Russ, You and Free (my partner) came up with interesting and, in 
some ways, similar, answers.  Both of you are in business and work 
with the machines and systems which may be able to bridge the gap 
(the decline in workers in the economy).  Free's response is 
reprinted just below your message. Thanks for the discussion.  Best 
Regards,  Janet

From: Russell Nelson <nelson at crynwr.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:47:18 -0400
To: Janet Minshall <jhminshall at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [saymaListserv] Fwd: Re: Is Population Decline A Greater
  Threat Now Than Population Growth?

Janet  Minshall writes:
  > >education of any kind. Everything that depends on tax dollars begins
  > >to fall apart. What do we do?  40 to 75 years really isn't a very
  > >long time to come up with an answer.

Robots.  Once people realize that we need *fewer* jobs, not more, all
the resistance to automating things will go away.  Look at things like
http://www.ruf.dk (dual-mode transport).  What do we need trucks
drivers and/or taxicab drivers for, when cars can drive themselves?

That's the more concrete answer.  The more "ethereal" answer is simply
increased capital accumulation.  There is one and only one thing that
creates program: capital.  On the most simplest possible level, it's
the difference between eating your seedcorn, and saving it to plant
next season.  Everyone can understand the necessity of doing that
(because everyone who is currently alive had ancestors who did that),
so everyone should be able to understand the need for accumulating
capital of all sorts, not just seedcorn.  Russ

--My blog is at angry-economist.russnelson.com  | Violence never solves
Crynwr sells support for free software  | PGPok | problems, it just changes
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 212-202-2318 voice | them into more subtle
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | FWD# 404529 via VOIP  | problems.

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:49:48 -0400
To: sayma at kitenet.net
From: free polazzo <freepolazzo at comcast.net>
Subject: How to handle some of the problems caused by Population Decline

At 04:04 AM 9/8/2004, Janet wrote:

  As the population ages and declines there are fewer and fewer
workers to pay taxes and fund our social and health programs, our
support systems for the poor, the elderly, the sick and the disabled,
and fewer resources available to fund education of any kind.
Everything that depends on tax dollars begins to fall apart. What do
we do?  40 to 75 years really isn't a very long time to come up with
an answer.

                                 Janet Minshall

Free Polazzo wrote on the SAYMA discussion list:

Here are some possible solutions to the declining population issue. 
I post them here to share them with the SAYMA community.

My hopes/guesses about the future:

1.   Productivity per person will increase as computers and processes 
we use to make and deliver "stuff"  (not a technical term is it?) 

2.   With fewer people with more resources being produced per person, 
there will be less conflict between individuals and between "tribes". 
(this includes nations and other, older human organizations".

3.	The percentage of resources that go to the military will 
decline because of item 2.

4.   Creativity will be seen as the "wealth of nations" by more and 
more economic units (Smaller Businesses, Co-ops, large corporations, 
whatever).   Attracting corporations will be less important than 
attracting creative people.   see

5    Creative people want to live in cities with other creative 
people.  This link will allow you to see you your city/region ranks 
in creativity in the USA.

6.   The creative "Creative Class" wants to live in places that offer 
"Three T's:  Technology, Talent and Tolerence".    (From the book:  
"The Rise of the Creative Class: And How It's Transforming Work, 
Leisure, Community and Everyday Life" Richard Florida ;Paperback; 
$11.17 at:  www.amazon.com

7.   To attract and retain the "Creative Class", who are producing 
more and more of the wealth,
Governmental units (cities, towns, states, countries) will compete 
for them to live and work in their communities.  (See how your city 
ranks in "Creativity"


8.    Processes will be changed to preserve the plant's natural bio 
sphere as item 4 continues to increase in importance.  

The following quote is taken from:   http://www.creativeclass.org/book.shtml

     The Rise of the Creative Class gives us a provocative new way to 
think about why we live as we do today - and where we might be 
headed. In a book that weaves a storytelling with a massive body of 
research, Richard Florida traces the fundamental theme that runs 
through a host of seemingly unrelated changes in American society: 
the growing role of creativity in our economy.
      Just as William Whyte's 1956 classic The Organization Man showed 
how the organizational ethos of that age permeated every aspect of 
life, Florida describes a society in which the creative ethos is 
increasingly dominant. Millions of us are beginning to work and live 
much as creative types like artists and scientists always have - with 
the result that our values and tastes, our personal relationships, 
our choices of where to live, and even our sense and use of time are 
changing. Leading the shift are the nearly 38 million Americans in 
many diverse fields who create for a living - the Creative Class.
      The Rise of the Creative Class chronicles the ongoing sea of 
change in people's choices and attitudes, and shows not only what's 
happening but also how it stems from a fundamental economic change. 
The Creative Class now comprises more than thirty percent of the 
entire workforce. The choices these people make already had a huge 
economic impact, and in the future they will determine how the 
workplace is organized, what companies will prosper or go bankrupt, 
and even which cities will thrive or wither.

This link takes you to an audio presentation by the author of "The 
Creative Class" to a group located in Memphis, TN.


9.   Older people can be productive in this "creative" world.   They 
can continue to provide for themselves, although probably at a lower 
income level than before.

10.    Taxes can be raised to provide for the elderly.    The elderly 
will be a large voting block and will be able to redistribute the 
wealth using the tax system.

I think all the upheaval we are experiencing with the shift in jobs, 
professions, leisure are all exciting and necessary for the peaceable 
kindom to arrive.  

Most Quakers want the way our communities prioritize where our money 
goes to change.   It may be happening before our very eyes.   


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